Attention Duelists! This is the Yu-Gi-Oh TCG/OCG Thread!

You can only special summon from your hand or graveyard. That makes it fairly difficult to do unless you got the perfect setup.

It's a lot harder than it had to be, imo.

The effect is also just too easy to stop, which is what bothers me the most. The activation requirements are poor, and it's super easy to stop with things like Starlight Road. I'm glad that it at least makes sure to only do a very specific amount of damage, but they could've made the activation requirements just a tad easier. I agree with exact limit to how many cards are hit by it, but having any 3 Harpie cards on the field to activate it would've been fine. It also makes sure you can't use Harpie Rabbit to easily do it.

Why Is Marik getting stuff in Joey and Mai's pack? He screwed them both over; he's not allowed in their pack!

Exactly. So he's related to both of them and it makes sense for him to be in their pack. >.> <.<

I'm kind of intrigued as to what its "so broken it's banned from the moment we release it" effect is though.

So am I.

Is it Victory Dragon levels of broken effect? Yata? Spellbook of Judgment?(btw, I'd put those in order of broken power. Victory has the most broken overall effect, bar none. Yata is aggressive and can lock you down pretty easily to this day. Judgment is the weakest of the 3, since it actually requires you to survive a turn to use all that stuff you grabbed. But it's still goddamn powerful)

It does seem to say "When an effect of a card reduces your Monster to 0 attack, draw till you have five cards in your hand." ...Yeah, that's beyond ridiculous. Take any monster with ? attack, equip Megamorph, instant draws. Ew, no. There's also a lot of cards that can turn a monsters' attack to 0. It also notably works in other ways. Say they Effect Veiler either Chimeratech. It becomes 0, so now you can draw 5 cards alone from that. This is very bad for the game. It's like another Super Rejuvenation waiting to happen. Being a trap doesn't cut it. It's just too good. Albeit, that's the best Yugioh Wikia could figure out so far. It could be "whenever your monsters' attack is reduced..." or something. It might not even be 0.

edited 27th Sep '13 7:41:55 PM by Irene

It's not...that bad, assuming those guesses are right.

...Then again, Umbral Horror Ghoul can drop its own attack to 0...Or is that a cost? I'm not entirely sure with the way it's worded, ehe.

I'd call that bad and too easy to abuse. An instant five cards for using any monster with undefined attack? Not a good idea.

Um...what?

I explained it up there already.

If the effect states "When your monster's attack is reduced to 0, draw up to five cards", any monster you use that doesn't have an actual defined attack(for instance, Tragoedia), you can activate this card. Combine that with things like Megamorph, or being hit by an Effect Veiler, Breakthrough Skill, or Fiendish Chain, we present a huge problem.

It's hyper easy to pull off in this kind of meta, and even worse when you take the Chimeratechs into account, who both can easily be reduced to 0 without any effort from either player. What it does is give you an instant and super easy to activate draw card.

It's banned because it's beyond easy to activate and abuse for free advantage. It's honestly on Victory Dragon levels of stupid.

It has to already be this crazy or very similar for them to instant-ban it. Like they did with some cards in the TCG when they were released.(Makyura, Temple of the Kings...)

edited 27th Sep '13 7:53:58 PM by Irene

The "becomes 0 by a card effect" might as well be confirmed, since "becomes [single digit number]" and "effect" are both clearly visible in the picture. So, Breakthrough Skill, Effect Veiler, Skill Drain and Fiendish Chain presumably wouldn't trigger it.

I'm not arguing that it's balanced, just that it's nowhere near as bad as you seem to think it is.

edited 27th Sep '13 7:55:02 PM by tachikaze

Nah. It's definitely that broken.

There's really no way they could've gotten around this effect. You don't have to discard or sent your hand to the graveyard, or even banish. Wording it really well wouldn't much help. Again, there's many monsters who has an effect that isn't defined. Keeping that in mind, it's possible to reduce it to 0 with Megamorph at any time and chain this card. I do not like how easy it is to activate. Even if somehow Breakthrough Skill didn't work, which it probably would, since it's an effect that reduces it to 0, it can be used aggressively with no issues. It's slightly slow due to being a Trap, but that's not much of an excuse. There's also cards that can reduce a monster's attack to 0 directly, making this even easier to activate.

Regardless of whether the effect is easy or super easy to pull off, it overall is an extremely broken draw engine along the same lines that Super Rejuvenation is. Too easy to use, too much draw power. It definitely is a good idea to ban it right away before anyone can abuse it.

No, Breakthrough doesn't reduce a monster's attack to 0. It negates its effect, which might have the side effect of changing its attack. It doesn't actually modify the target's attack at all. >.>

edited 27th Sep '13 8:11:49 PM by tachikaze

The wording was near impossible to read.

Again, it depends how it reads entirely.

"(When the ATK?) of a monster(s) you control (becomes 0 by a card effect?): Draw until you have 5 cards in your hand."

Becoming 0 because of a card effect would include Breakthrough Skill. Because yes, your monster's attack does become 0 in the case of it being activated. But that's the current wording. If it said "reduced to 0", it'd be an entirely different story. As of the current wording, Breakthrough Skill would set it off, especially against things like Trag.

Becomes is a lot different from Reduce, and also has different rulings. Again, it's super easy to set off if the current wording is correct at all.

I'm fairly certain Tachi's the one reading it right. Stuff like Breakthrough Skill and Veiler would not work, even if you read it as "becomes", I'm pretty sure.
Who was it that had the Venom deck? Or, there's also other stuff that reduces that low.

Speaking as the resident Harpie-lover, Phoenix formation isn't nearly as unplayable as you think. It's at least side deck worthy. I mean really, what summons them from the deck? Channeler, and maybe a well timed Inferno Reckless Summon.

edited 27th Sep '13 8:33:30 PM by wanderlustwarrior

Wonder if there'll be a Kaiba's World, or "world" packs for any of the sequel protagonists. At least I'm happy that Joey got a "World" pack before Kaiba, because, as is commonly forgotten, he was always intended to be the true Deuteragonist.

Egotist can too, but that can go from the hand too if you're one short. Normally, that would be a needless -1, but with Hunting Ground or Phoenix Formation, it would break even (also, could be the difference between being able to activate Phoenix and it being dead in your hand) and with both, it's a +1.

There isn't a pack possible big enough to contain Kaiba's "world". The ego on that kid.

Who has already had a "World"? I hope Pegasus gets one. New Toon and Relinquished stuff would be hilarious.

Also, Joey totally married Mai in my headcanon. They're also world champion tag duelists, with such cards as "Harpie's Pet Red Eyes B. Dragon", and "Amazonness of Landstar". Maybe I'll propose those in the card maker thread.

edited 27th Sep '13 8:44:12 PM by wanderlustwarrior

Just Yugi and Joey so far. Most of Pegasus' cards are already out, at least from the original series. They could release his GX cards, though, I suppose.

Unfortunately, the manual says they're Just Friends. Okay then.

edited 27th Sep '13 8:46:08 PM by HamburgerTime

...What the hell is so broken about Victory Dragon? The fact that it can win three duels in a row?

It probably wasn't even banned for being broken. There's a good argument for it being because of the conflict that would arise when people just surrendered before it could attack.

That's the only reason why I think they'd bother to ban it, because otherwise it's sorta mediocre.

Yes.

There is no reason anybody should be able to win a match without playing a best 2 out of 3. That's the reason they exist. He doesn't circumvent regular game mechanics, he circumvents tournaments mechanics. It's bad enough crap like Yata ever existed, but skipping the draw phase pales in comparison to auto-winning the match because of one successful attack. I cannot fathom how this card could ever come back.

I'd say the fact that every Match Winner after it has been entirely illegal means that they it's heavily considered broken enough to stay banned forever.

Getting it off isn't the issue; It's the fact it can happen and has too powerful of an effect in comparison. I'd rather it was "Any battle damage this card does to the opponent is doubled", since as cheap as it is, it's still more fair, since it can at best end a single duel.

Actual tournaments are played in matches, not duels. Victory Dragon is entirely different from every card in the game. Many cards ignore regular in-game mechanics. Victory Dragon ignores out-of-game mechanics. That's a different level of broken than many cards. I know he can't go off as much as he used to, but that's... not ultimately a good excuse here. No effect like that is ever appropriate in a game where Best 2 out of 3 exist as the Tournament standard.

Considering all the rest are illegal, it somewhat is. Keep in mind, when it got banned, they also banned every possible way to make him usable, and Time Seal hasn't come back since(and probably never will, just like Yata never will. Same boat in this case). Also, keep in mind that he only got banned because he could successfully win a match at a tourney. If he never could, his effect wouldn't matter. It was also during a duel where you couldn't surrender. So it may just be a Japan thing in this case. But even then, why let people surrender the duel after you worked your butt off to actually successfully reduce your opponent's LP to 0 with this card? After all that hard work?

It's both broken and a headache for Judges. Both reasons are honestly why it's gone, and will stay gone forever. Think about it for a sec; If this card wasn't broken at all in Konami's opinion, why would they make all the rest of the Match Winners illegal? Just for Judges? America doesn't have the surrender rule problem. It won't be a headache for those Judges. So it has to have to do with it's broken effect for it to make sense to ban in the first place

So is Time Seal. Still hasn't come back. The overall effect of the card does matter for pretty much every banned card. Judges alone aren't the reason. Cyber-Stein is near impossible to use now, but it's still only good for OTK's. Metamorphosis has been abused for OTK's very often. Thousand-Eyes Restrict is still gone due to being one of the best lockdown cards in the game. It's closer to stalling purposes, although honestly, it's kind of crap now. The difference among every card not named Victory Dragon is that their effect is still in the end weaker in some way. Some are kind of stupid in other words, but none of them can auto-win a match in any possible way.

edited 27th Sep '13 9:09:28 PM by Irene

personally I wish they never made match winners after Victory Dragon to begin with

because I look at the great artwork they tend to have while knowing it's COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE to use them legally and i'm like asdfsfjfbdsfksl' fls;fewr

@ Things coming off the banlist: I once saw a post on Pojo forums by Kevin Tewart where he said he hoped everything would come off the banlist at some point or other, depending on how the metagame changes. Even CED and Yata, which he specifically named (though probably not at the same time). I've unfortunately been unable to find the post again.

edited 27th Sep '13 9:27:06 PM by HamburgerTime

Honestly, they should have never made Victory Dragon to begin with.

The design was beyond stupid. He's the most unusable monster, and his key effect is beyond broken. I don't get what they were thinking of that one. Even some of the more broken cards have a weaker overall effect in the end. Nothing tops it.

And casual duels are a thing.

Keep in mind this was during the UDE era where he had far more control of the list. Yata isn't going to come back any time soon. Tsukuyomi and Mask of Darkness are at 3 as well. Time Seal not coming back when it's possible to pull off a deadly loop, well... many loops are gone. Primal Seed, The Transmigration Prophecy(it helps that you can choose exactly what cards to return to your deck, keeping the key ones in the graveyard that you want. It's actually pretty useful for making sure you have a perfect set up for DAD, and it also works against your opponent as well. It disrupts Pot of Avarice as well, although that's banned in the TCG, mostly for duplicity, the other for the fact it's usable extremely often in a game with one Macro-Cosmos and one D-Fissure).

Basically, I wouldn't look at any card and say it could return. Some just won't. Trishula I knew could, because it was a one-time effect and wasn't beyond easy to pull off anymore like it used to be. Lonefire and Dandylion are at 1, no Glow-Up Bulb, etc.

edited 27th Sep '13 9:36:23 PM by Irene

...Really? They banned Avarice because of a card that's not going to be out until the last month of the format? Not because it's a mindless +1? >.>

This was hilarious. My opponent realised their spam play left them 50 damage short and rage quit, even though they almost definitely would've won next turn.◊