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A different kind of abortion debate.

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BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
TheMightyAnonym PARTY HARD!!!! from Pony Chan Since: Jan, 2010
PARTY HARD!!!!
#27: Jan 21st 2011 at 6:17:42 PM

Yeah, the OP makes no sense whatsoever. It's not clear what exactly we're supposed to discuss. It's like trying to have a debate about teaching evolution without mentioning science.

So you're telling me that tongue gymnastics involving flitting around "It's HUMAN!" and "It's a CLUMP OF CELLS" back and forth is the only thing to talk about concerning abortion? I'm not about to buy that.

There is an entire plethora of things to talk about other than humanity/person-hood/sentience/whatever.

And no, this thread is not dedicated thought experiments.

Of course, for many the person-hood thing is the ENTIRE DECIDING FACTOR(!) for their stance on abortion, as if it is black and white.

I made a (promptly ignored) post here. Those aren't the only things, either.

edited 21st Jan '11 6:19:12 PM by TheMightyAnonym

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD
deathjavu This foreboding is fa... from The internet, obviously Since: Feb, 2010
This foreboding is fa...
#28: Jan 21st 2011 at 6:25:38 PM

I've seen it addressed in an abortion debate. "We should also legalise rape, since it can't be prevented and when it's illegal rapists just perform dangerous back-alley rapes that could harm them." * As for a penalty... if the foetus is considered to be a person, the abortionist would be a murderer, and the woman an accessory to murder.

My point that I've never seen properly addressed in any abortion debate

I.E. adressed in a way that isn't fallacious (this is a false equivalence), and if the charge is murder I'm thinking there's going to be some outcry about that, which is kind of the whole point of it being unenforceable. Laws are just the enforcement of the morality of the majority, anyways.

And besides, when you follow "abortion should be legally (not morally) defined as murder" all the way you go down some silly roads. Drinking/smoking while pregnant becomes assault/attempted murder. Having a dangerous job becomes reckless endangerment.

The punishment should fit the crime...

Regardless of how funny the first response to this was, I have to ask what you think this constitutes.

Look, you can't make me speak in a logical, coherent, intelligent bananna.
TheMightyAnonym PARTY HARD!!!! from Pony Chan Since: Jan, 2010
PARTY HARD!!!!
#29: Jan 21st 2011 at 6:32:19 PM

A better analogy would be when killing in self defense is legal; rather than LEGALIZE RAPE.

As for the punishment, whatever prevents more breaking of the law, while not being cruel.

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#30: Jan 21st 2011 at 6:48:15 PM

Well, the bottom line is, either the issues and objections raised by the Violinist example are relevent or they arnt. If they are, then there may be valid reason to justify allowing a human being to die. If they arnt, then I'm afraid we are back to arguing about whether the fetus is fully human or not.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
CommandoDude Since: Jun, 2010
#31: Jan 21st 2011 at 6:55:31 PM

"he violinist example doesn't have anything to do with rape; even if you agreed to let the music lovers use your body in the first place, you could still withdraw consent in the middle and get up."

It's the fact that while they're asleep the music people hook your body up without your consent.

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#32: Jan 21st 2011 at 7:05:16 PM

@TMA: There are basically two lines of argument concerning abortion.

One is "Is it immoral to kill the fetus?" This is without any consideration of the other question; say if you shoved a woman and the fetus died in the impact, would that be as wrong as shoving a non-pregnant woman, or would it be as wrong stabbing a non-pregnant woman? Most people replace "a thing that is immoral to kill" with "person", and so this ends up boiling down to "Is the fetus a person or not?"

The other is "Does a woman have the right to kill the fetus?" Although some pro-choicers argue "Yes. without conditions", and some pro-lifers argue "No, without conditions", most people's answer to this question is tied to their answer to the first question. That is, yes she does if it's not a person and no she doesn't if it is.

This all means that the only meaningful thing to say about abortion is whether or not the fetus is a person.

EDIT: Yes, but it still would not be immoral to unhook yourself if you agreed to it in the first place, instead of them kidnapping you.

edited 21st Jan '11 7:06:04 PM by BlackHumor

TheMightyAnonym PARTY HARD!!!! from Pony Chan Since: Jan, 2010
PARTY HARD!!!!
#33: Jan 21st 2011 at 7:07:46 PM

There is more to it though.

I would say that people shouldn't be in such a black&white standard.

Besides, half the reason for this thread is to be interesting.

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#34: Jan 21st 2011 at 7:08:48 PM

But it doesn't matter if it's a black and white standard if that's the standard that makes sense.

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#35: Jan 21st 2011 at 7:16:10 PM

What is wrong with black and white? Not everything is gray, you know.

Moving on, there's nothing else about the abortion issue to have a debate over besides the status of a fetus. Sure, we could circumvent the topic with hypothetical questions and examples, but this split is at the core of the debate.

edited 21st Jan '11 7:17:35 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
TheMightyAnonym PARTY HARD!!!! from Pony Chan Since: Jan, 2010
PARTY HARD!!!!
#36: Jan 21st 2011 at 7:34:26 PM

The problem is that we simply cannot know for certain which side is correct.

Because of this, we have to focus on preventing trouble entirely, and remaining neutral.

edited 21st Jan '11 7:34:53 PM by TheMightyAnonym

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#37: Jan 21st 2011 at 7:43:14 PM

Regardless of how funny the first response to this was, I have to ask what you think this constitutes.
Here is the punishment used in a story I wrote set in a dystopian future america. It's not comical.

By month 3 most women made the request...

edited 21st Jan '11 8:13:31 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid
CommandoDude Since: Jun, 2010
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#39: Jan 21st 2011 at 7:53:41 PM

You think that punishment fits the crime of an abortion? About where do you live, so I can remember to never visit there, ever? How is that even comparable? A fetus isn't sapient. And three inches? Are you that bad at math, or are you just a monster? How would anyone manage to leave through a three-inch hole without amputating most if not all of their body? You know what, scratch that. I don't want to hear any more. Please don't link your dystopia.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
OOZE Don't feed the plants! from Transsexual,Transylvania Since: Dec, 1969
Don't feed the plants!
#40: Jan 21st 2011 at 7:59:16 PM

I dislike the violinist thought experiment because it only applies in the case of rape (the person did nothing themselves to get the violinist attached to them). Assuming the lack of the existence of rape, a large element of the pro-life argument is that the woman has already decided to risk having a baby by having sex, as there is no perfect contraception. The thought experiment would be improved if, for twenty bucks, the person in question put a ticket in a lotto to get the violinist attached to them.

I'm feeling strangely happy now, contented and serene. Oh don't you see, finally I'll be, somewhere that's green...
TheMightyAnonym PARTY HARD!!!! from Pony Chan Since: Jan, 2010
PARTY HARD!!!!
#41: Jan 21st 2011 at 8:06:42 PM

I thought that the main ground for the pro-choice side was how the woman is "enslaved" to her body, and should be able to free herself.

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD
Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#42: Jan 21st 2011 at 8:41:51 PM

All the Violinist argument does is draw a distinction between “right to life” and “right to what is needed to sustain life.” But it's not evident that the fetus or the violinist have either of those rights.

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#43: Jan 21st 2011 at 8:46:17 PM

You think that punishment fits the crime of an abortion? About where do you live, so I can remember to never visit there, ever? How is that even comparable? A fetus isn't sapient. And three inches? Are you that bad at math, or are you just a monster? How would anyone manage to leave through a three-inch hole without amputating most if not all of their body? You know what, scratch that. I don't want to hear any more.

Umm.. it's was meant to be horrifically cruel and excessive. Did I not make it clear enough?

edited 21st Jan '11 8:47:38 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#44: Jan 21st 2011 at 9:01:44 PM

Probably. Sorry, I wasn't following very closely, and I thought you were actually trying to answer the question.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#45: Jan 21st 2011 at 9:56:24 PM

Umm.. it's was meant to be horrifically cruel and excessive. Did I not make it clear enough?

I'm still trying to figure out how people could even survive 3 months.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
Beholderess from Moscow Since: Jun, 2010
#46: Jan 21st 2011 at 10:08:31 PM

"Killing vs letting die" is usually brought up because most abortion procedures don't remove the foetus alive to die outside the womb; they actively kill it inside the womb (through pills or injection or whatever).
So if it was removed alive but inevitably died after that it would be better somehow? Noted.

Articles 63 of the protection of unborn life act: Any woman found guilty of procure her own miscarriage will be locked in a body size metal box for nine months with a 3 inch wide hole use to exchange food, water and bodily waste. The prisoner is free to go at any time by her choosing providing she is willing to leave by the service hole. Assistance from staff with the aid of surgical instruments will be available on request.
Ahem, if anything, it proves that abortions are good because fetus would prefer to die than to be in it's circumstances. The point?

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#47: Jan 21st 2011 at 10:22:13 PM

Ahem, if anything, it proves that abortions are good because fetus would prefer to die than to be in it's circumstances.
Lol tongue. Being in utero I guess would be allot like being in high school. You still tend to look back on it with nostalgia no matter how much it sucks.

edited 21st Jan '11 10:24:54 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid
Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#48: Jan 21st 2011 at 10:58:13 PM

I sure as hell do not look back on high school with nostalgia.

Ahem, if anything, it proves that abortions are good because fetus would prefer to die than to be in it's circumstances. The point?
On the other hand, said circumstances are all that a fetus has ever known. I would say the fetus is better off dead than it is being removed from its safe little world where everything is provided for it and introduced to the hostile and chaotic world outside, where survival is a struggle and there are no certainties save the inevitability of death.

edited 21st Jan '11 10:59:56 PM by Tongpu

Beholderess from Moscow Since: Jun, 2010
#49: Jan 21st 2011 at 11:14:53 PM

Heh, all I wanted to say is that it sounds not like punishment for abortion (considering that this part is optional) but for conception. Which makes an analogy rather weird.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common
UnabashedFornicator Since: Oct, 2010
#50: Jan 21st 2011 at 11:50:04 PM

Self-thumped for being off-topic. Thought this was in Yack Fest, sorry.

edited 21st Jan '11 11:54:25 PM by UnabashedFornicator


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