So you're telling me that tongue gymnastics involving flitting around "It's HUMAN!" and "It's a CLUMP OF CELLS" back and forth is the only thing to talk about concerning abortion? I'm not about to buy that.
There is an entire plethora of things to talk about other than humanity/person-hood/sentience/whatever.
And no, this thread is not dedicated thought experiments.
Of course, for many the person-hood thing is the ENTIRE DECIDING FACTOR(!) for their stance on abortion, as if it is black and white.
I made a (promptly ignored) post here.
Those aren't the only things, either.
edited 21st Jan '11 6:19:12 PM by TheMightyAnonym
Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GODI.E. adressed in a way that isn't fallacious (this is a false equivalence), and if the charge is murder I'm thinking there's going to be some outcry about that, which is kind of the whole point of it being unenforceable. Laws are just the enforcement of the morality of the majority, anyways.
And besides, when you follow "abortion should be legally (not morally) defined as murder" all the way you go down some silly roads. Drinking/smoking while pregnant becomes assault/attempted murder. Having a dangerous job becomes reckless endangerment.
Regardless of how funny the first response to this was, I have to ask what you think this constitutes.
Look, you can't make me speak in a logical, coherent, intelligent bananna.A better analogy would be when killing in self defense is legal; rather than LEGALIZE RAPE.
As for the punishment, whatever prevents more breaking of the law, while not being cruel.
Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GODWell, the bottom line is, either the issues and objections raised by the Violinist example are relevent or they arnt. If they are, then there may be valid reason to justify allowing a human being to die. If they arnt, then I'm afraid we are back to arguing about whether the fetus is fully human or not.
I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.@TMA: There are basically two lines of argument concerning abortion.
One is "Is it immoral to kill the fetus?" This is without any consideration of the other question; say if you shoved a woman and the fetus died in the impact, would that be as wrong as shoving a non-pregnant woman, or would it be as wrong stabbing a non-pregnant woman? Most people replace "a thing that is immoral to kill" with "person", and so this ends up boiling down to "Is the fetus a person or not?"
The other is "Does a woman have the right to kill the fetus?" Although some pro-choicers argue "Yes. without conditions", and some pro-lifers argue "No, without conditions", most people's answer to this question is tied to their answer to the first question. That is, yes she does if it's not a person and no she doesn't if it is.
This all means that the only meaningful thing to say about abortion is whether or not the fetus is a person.
EDIT: Yes, but it still would not be immoral to unhook yourself if you agreed to it in the first place, instead of them kidnapping you.
edited 21st Jan '11 7:06:04 PM by BlackHumor
What is wrong with black and white? Not everything is gray, you know.
Moving on, there's nothing else about the abortion issue to have a debate over besides the status of a fetus. Sure, we could circumvent the topic with hypothetical questions and examples, but this split is at the core of the debate.
edited 21st Jan '11 7:17:35 PM by Ultrayellow
Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.The problem is that we simply cannot know for certain which side is correct.
Because of this, we have to focus on preventing trouble entirely, and remaining neutral.
edited 21st Jan '11 7:34:53 PM by TheMightyAnonym
Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GODBy month 3 most women made the request...
edited 21st Jan '11 8:13:31 PM by joeyjojo
hashtagsarestupidYou think that punishment fits the crime of an abortion? About where do you live, so I can remember to never visit there, ever? How is that even comparable? A fetus isn't sapient. And three inches? Are you that bad at math, or are you just a monster? How would anyone manage to leave through a three-inch hole without amputating most if not all of their body? You know what, scratch that. I don't want to hear any more. Please don't link your dystopia.
Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.I dislike the violinist thought experiment because it only applies in the case of rape (the person did nothing themselves to get the violinist attached to them). Assuming the lack of the existence of rape, a large element of the pro-life argument is that the woman has already decided to risk having a baby by having sex, as there is no perfect contraception. The thought experiment would be improved if, for twenty bucks, the person in question put a ticket in a lotto to get the violinist attached to them.
I'm feeling strangely happy now, contented and serene. Oh don't you see, finally I'll be, somewhere that's green...Umm.. it's was meant to be horrifically cruel and excessive. Did I not make it clear enough?
edited 21st Jan '11 8:47:38 PM by joeyjojo
hashtagsarestupidI'm still trying to figure out how people could even survive 3 months.
Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Playedited 21st Jan '11 10:24:54 PM by joeyjojo
hashtagsarestupidI sure as hell do not look back on high school with nostalgia.
edited 21st Jan '11 10:59:56 PM by Tongpu

Only on Tuesdays.