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Is Climate Denial Corporate Driven, or Ideological?

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#51: Jan 21st 2011 at 6:49:14 PM

I would remind you that I'm a mod and threaten to start thumping, but that's... actually appropriate.

Edit: fixed Freudian grammar slip, hopefully before anyone noticed.

edited 21st Jan '11 6:49:45 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MarkVonLewis Since: Jun, 2010
#52: Jan 21st 2011 at 8:13:01 PM

Well, it's very possible that I'm very much wrong and we have been royally fucking the planet. Come to think of it, humanity DOES have a great propensity for destruction.

Still, even if I accept that this climate change is happening because of us, I just don't care enough to "go green" or change my ways. I'm an apathetic, self-centered bastard like that. But yeah, come to think of it, maybe this climate change is because of us.

GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#53: Jan 21st 2011 at 8:44:36 PM

Well, so be it.

I've always maintained that this world is both half empty and half full, and becomes what we make of it, in our decisions. Should we choose wisely, we will be rewarded; should we choose foolishly, we will be punished.

jewelleddragon Also known as Katz from Pasadena, CA Since: Apr, 2009
Also known as Katz
#54: Jan 21st 2011 at 9:11:52 PM

[up][up]See, I can respect you if you say "sure, it may be happening, but I just don't care."

I can't respect someone who denies that something is happening because they don't want to do anything about it.

OOZE Don't feed the plants! from Transsexual,Transylvania Since: Dec, 1969
Don't feed the plants!
#55: Jan 21st 2011 at 9:14:18 PM

And if I think it's not happening because I think it's not happening?

I'm feeling strangely happy now, contented and serene. Oh don't you see, finally I'll be, somewhere that's green...
GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#56: Jan 21st 2011 at 9:19:06 PM

And [what] if I think it's not happening because I think it's not happening?

wut

edited 21st Jan '11 9:19:31 PM by GlennMagusHarvey

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#57: Jan 21st 2011 at 9:31:41 PM

[up][up] You'd be ignoring warnings of a potential catastrophe in favor of an opinion, which is fine when the things you're talking about are matters of opinion, but not when you're pretending that the metaphorical bus is not about to hit you.

Climate change is not a matter of opinion. It's not something you "believe" or "disbelieve". It is a matter of scientific fact, which could be true, not true, or occupy some range inbetween that can be measured and observed. However, unless you are a trained climatologist or a person with similar credentials, it is not within your powers to say definitively that it is or is not occurring. Many, many trained scientific personnel assert that it is and cite evidence for that. We would do well to trust them to know what they're talking about.

I can claim to disbelieve in the aforementioned metaphorical bus, but it's either about to hit me or it is not. Belief is not really appropriate.

edited 21st Jan '11 9:33:51 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
OOZE Don't feed the plants! from Transsexual,Transylvania Since: Dec, 1969
Don't feed the plants!
#58: Jan 21st 2011 at 9:46:35 PM

From my point of view, I see a man wearing a labcoat screaming at me that there's an invisible bus heading towards me and if I give him my wallet the bus will go away.

I'm feeling strangely happy now, contented and serene. Oh don't you see, finally I'll be, somewhere that's green...
jewelleddragon Also known as Katz from Pasadena, CA Since: Apr, 2009
Also known as Katz
#59: Jan 21st 2011 at 9:50:18 PM

[up]*Facepalm*

Funnyguts Since: Sep, 2010
#60: Jan 21st 2011 at 9:54:35 PM

^^Good thing you can still hear the metaphorical bus. We have yearly temperature records being broken, glacial core samples, and quite a lot of other signs that the 'bus' is coming.

I also wonder how much of denial is driven by religious factors rather than corporate or free market ideologies. While a lot of churches, including evangelical ones, have no problem acknowledging climate change, there seems to be a lot of religious individuals claiming that God wouldn't let this happen...

edited 21st Jan '11 9:54:55 PM by Funnyguts

OOZE Don't feed the plants! from Transsexual,Transylvania Since: Dec, 1969
Don't feed the plants!
#61: Jan 21st 2011 at 9:56:08 PM

That makes sense, as The Bible explicitly denies that God would ever flood the Earth again.

I'm feeling strangely happy now, contented and serene. Oh don't you see, finally I'll be, somewhere that's green...
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#62: Jan 21st 2011 at 9:58:07 PM

I wonder how much climate change opposition in North America could be defused with the sentence: "The House of Saud thanks you for your support."

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
MarkVonLewis Since: Jun, 2010
#63: Jan 21st 2011 at 9:58:21 PM

Come to think of it, from personal experience the climate is indeed changing. Warmer summers, colder winters... Damn.

edited 21st Jan '11 10:00:31 PM by MarkVonLewis

Desertopa Not Actually Indie Since: Jan, 2001
Not Actually Indie
#64: Jan 21st 2011 at 10:04:14 PM

From my point of view, I see a man wearing a labcoat screaming at me that there's an invisible bus heading towards me and if I give him my wallet the bus will go away.

More like a crowd of people in labcoats, many of them cringing or covering their eyes, and they don't give a crap about your wallet.

...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.
Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#65: Jan 21st 2011 at 10:16:03 PM

Well, quite a few people believe that nothing really matters in the long-term because they think that the 'end times' will happen within their lifetime.

Another part of the problem is that because climate/weather models are often inaccurate due to their inherent complexity, I think that there is a bit of a natural mistrust regarding these issues. Then you have deniers who jump on every recalculation as being proof that climate change is a fraud....it's not an easy sell really.

Another part of the problem, at least in the US is that due to structural issues, dealing with climate change is going to be much more difficult. Things such as urban sprawl and sunbelt cooling make solutions a lot more difficult than they would be. I honestly think that true market forces (that is, once steps are taken to reign in externalities), will take care of those things. But because people LIKE those things, they'll fight tooth and nail against it.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#66: Jan 22nd 2011 at 12:40:18 AM

That makes sense, as The Bible explicitly denies that God would ever flood the Earth again.

So, about those floods in Australia and Brazil...

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#67: Jan 22nd 2011 at 7:14:08 AM

The Bible is a nice fairy tale told by people who didn't have the slightest clue about climatology, greenhouse gases, or even that the Earth orbits the Sun. When it comes to those topics, I will take the word of scientists over the word of some 2000 year old goatherders.

edited 22nd Jan '11 7:14:31 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Chalkos Sidequest Proliferator from The Internets Since: Oct, 2010
Sidequest Proliferator
#68: Jan 22nd 2011 at 7:47:07 AM

Actually, 2000 years ago the Jewish people had a fairly sophisticated society, given their repeated Hellenization and subjugation to Rome. You know, what have the Romans ever done for us? Running water, roads, education? The goatherders were more like 4000 to 5000 years ago, as I recall.

On topic, the only possibly viable objection to climate change that I've seen is the idea that it's a natural cycle, and this objection is defeated by that picture on the NASA site anyway, so really I just don't know. Much of my family either believes in it but thinks that people aren't responsible for all of it or just doesn't believe in it at all. (They also make fun of "those scientists" for "changing the name" from global warming to climate change, which bugs me.)

OOZE Don't feed the plants! from Transsexual,Transylvania Since: Dec, 1969
Don't feed the plants!
#69: Jan 22nd 2011 at 9:43:40 AM

Climate change IS an absurd name, as the climate by definition changes and has for hundreds of millions of years. Perhaps "bad climate change" would be clearer?

I'm feeling strangely happy now, contented and serene. Oh don't you see, finally I'll be, somewhere that's green...
petrie911 Since: Aug, 2009
#70: Jan 22nd 2011 at 10:04:59 AM

^Which does bring up an important question. Are we certain this change is bad?

Belief or disbelief rests with you.
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#71: Jan 22nd 2011 at 10:08:48 AM

Yes

Anyway, maybe Anthropogenic Climate Change would be a better name, but it takes too long to say.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
OOZE Don't feed the plants! from Transsexual,Transylvania Since: Dec, 1969
Don't feed the plants!
#72: Jan 22nd 2011 at 10:10:18 AM

I sud rer to do tt melf.

I'm feeling strangely happy now, contented and serene. Oh don't you see, finally I'll be, somewhere that's green...
jewelleddragon Also known as Katz from Pasadena, CA Since: Apr, 2009
Also known as Katz
#73: Jan 22nd 2011 at 11:20:35 AM

Would "abnormally abrupt and catastrophic climate change" make things clearer?

lordGacek Since: Jan, 2001
#74: Jan 22nd 2011 at 12:00:10 PM

[up] So what is it now? I always thought Y2K was overhyped, and now it turns out it was a narrowly-averted tragedy. I always thought Waterworld was total Rule of Cool, and now the climate change sounds like it's going to be an horror on the scale surpassing any, like, African famines and this kind of stuff, seen before.

storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#75: Jan 22nd 2011 at 12:01:18 PM

Waterworld is total Rule of Cool. So is The Day After Tomorrow.

That doesn't mean bad stuff isn't happening. The thing is that no particular event can be directly linked to climate change. It's not that climate change caused a particular flood or famine, but there may be say, 10% more famines than there otherwise would be. Or an already bad hurricane is just that much more destructive.

Climate Change is already causing lots of destruction, it's just hard to see.

edited 22nd Jan '11 12:04:01 PM by storyyeller

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play

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