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Chesterton's "Introduction to The Book Of Job"

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RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#26: Jan 21st 2011 at 5:19:12 AM

You should have defined what you meant by "opinion" earlier. And I still disagree: normative statements implicitly carry the "and I think this has a positive outcome in my utility function" otherwise one would suggest another course of action. And, in fact, normative statements aren't "opinions", they are "suggestions"/"exhortations". In all the usages I know, "opinions" are descriptive statements, and called that as opposed to "knowledge" and "truth" because there isn't enough shared evidence to present it as incontrovertible truth to everyone. There is only one context I know where "opinions" can be misinterpreted as normative: "political opinions": in fact, these can be interpreted as actually being the common utility function shared by the people of one political culture and the limited knowledge they think they have on how to bring the maximum utility, which leads them to suggest that course of action to the whole of society.

I wish Nutt was a Real Life character.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Desertopa Not Actually Indie Since: Jan, 2001
Not Actually Indie
#27: Jan 21st 2011 at 5:39:52 AM

In all the usages I know, "opinions" are descriptive statements, and called that as opposed to "knowledge" and "truth" because there isn't enough shared evidence to present it as incontrovertible truth to everyone. There is only one context I know where "opinions" can be misinterpreted as normative: "political opinions": in fact, these can be interpreted as actually being the common utility function shared by the people of one political culture and the limited knowledge they think they have on how to bring the maximum utility, which leads them to suggest that course of action to the whole of society.

A statement like "Cowboy Bebop is the best anime series" is also normative.

...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#28: Jan 21st 2011 at 8:56:52 AM

"I hold opinion X, but I may be wrong" is generally taken as an indication that one is open to the possibility of changing the opinion, that one isn't an extremist or a fanatic.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#29: Jan 21st 2011 at 11:07:53 AM

"I hold opinion X, but I could theoretically be wrong" is OK, if a bit redundant. "I hold opinion X, but I don't claim that it's particularly likely to be true" is silly.

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BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#30: Jan 21st 2011 at 11:12:20 AM

Agreed with that, but I feel that a false distinction is being made here between knowledge based on empirical observations and opinions. Ideally, they ought to be the same thing.

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Gallowglasser Gallowglasser from Someplace Else. Since: Apr, 2010
Gallowglasser
#31: Jan 23rd 2011 at 3:35:38 AM

Thanks for the link OP, Chesterton is always a good read.

Desertopa Not Actually Indie Since: Jan, 2001
Not Actually Indie
#32: Jan 23rd 2011 at 11:53:27 AM

Agreed with that, but I feel that a false distinction is being made here between knowledge based on empirical observations and opinions. Ideally, they ought to be the same thing.

Why ought they be? Being subjective is what makes them opinions. Failing to draw a distinction only serves to make our language less clear.

...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#34: Jan 23rd 2011 at 4:44:36 PM

But if you assume the existence of an independent reality, then observations at least correspond to something objective, in a way that opinions do not.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#35: Jan 23rd 2011 at 6:53:08 PM

Ideally, those opinions should be based on your observations of that objective reality.

The opinion, "I think that America should enter unilateral negotiations with North Korea" would (one would hope) be based on observations suggesting that it is in America's interests to enter such negotiations.

edited 23rd Jan '11 6:53:28 PM by BobbyG

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DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#36: Jan 23rd 2011 at 7:38:29 PM

That would require having an opinion regarding which interests of America should receive the greatest priority, and there are no empirical tests for that.

Back OT, the book of Job is often interpreted as a debate between "Optimism" vs. "Pessimism" as life philosophies. In the end, it doesn't take a clear explicit stand, which many people find remarkable in a religious text. It should be clear that this question contains so many subjective issues that no clear answer can be said to more logical or empirically supported than any other.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
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