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LotR: Sauron- Complete Monster or Well Intentioned Extremist?

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MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#26: Nov 11th 2011 at 12:24:41 AM

[up]And for Sauron, those desires came from a combination of wanting to save the world and extreme pride (only my way can save the world), at least at first. By the time of LOTR, he was running pretty much purely on pride- he still wanted things run his way, of course, but no logner had any real desire to make the world a better place. Tolkien, not incidentally, saw Motive Decay as a natural symptom of evil and included some variation of it for many of his villains.

JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Apparition in the Woods
#27: Nov 11th 2011 at 2:27:18 PM

Isn't the whole Knight Templar trope for people who've gone too far in pursuing their vision to be called "well-intentioned" any more? Sauron is pretty much the definition of that, methinks. Probably not a Complete Monster, though: That trope seems to hinge heavily on a number of personal qualities that an entity as inhuman in nature as Sauron by definition lacks.

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#28: Nov 11th 2011 at 7:39:58 PM

Not exactly; the difference between a Knight Templar and a Well-Intentioned Extremist is the difference between The Fettered and The Unfettered. Well Intentioned Extremists are ruthless pragmatists; they have a sympathetic purpose in mind, but they are willing to go against their personal ideals to pursue their goals by any means necessary. They are much more likely to be The Unfettered, although not all of them are. A Knight Templar, on the other hand, is blinded by idealism to the point where they can't tell up from down, and they are ruthless in persecuting those who don't fall within the lines of their personal ideals. They aren't necessarily devoted to a goal, more like they're devoted to a self-determined code. They are always going to be The Fettered, though their fetters aren't necessarily going to make them sympathetic. They can overlap, but they are two different things when looked at separately.

Basically, a Well-Intentioned Extremist will always have sympathetic goals, but is ruthless in pursuing them, and a Knight Templar has personal ideals which he is ruthless in enforcing on others. Sauron began as the former, but he devolved into a standard Evil Overlord by the time he was captured and taken to Numenor, during which time he was a Magnificent Bastard Evil Chancellor, and later, became an Evil Overlord once again.

edited 11th Nov '11 7:44:07 PM by tropetown

ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#29: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:12:21 PM

Sauron did start out wanting to make the world orderly and efficient for everyone's good. But he quickly learned from Morgoth, and lusted after power for power's sake. He felt shame for his actions at the end of the First Age, out of sheer fear, and did want to help fix up Middle-earth, but was too proud to actually ask the Valar for pardon. So he started backsliding. By the end of the Second Age he'd lost all those good intentions — he no longer wanted to heal Middle-earth or help anyone but himself. He wanted absolute power to control everyone, to utterly dominate other wills as completely as he dominated the Nine Ringwraiths. Anyone who stood in his way, anyone who even made a mistake in his service, was to be punished horribly. What he did to Numenor was for revenge. He claimed to be both Morgoth and Eru, and he intended to be the unchallenged God-King of the universe forever.

Morgoth started out lying to himself about having good intentions, but from the very beginning he was jealous of Eru and wanted all the power for himself. He hated Ea and everything and everyone in it, just because he wasn't their sole omnipotent creator, and people had wills of their own separate from his. He wanted to destroy the entire universe and everything in it, preferrably torturing to death the parts that are alive. He'd have destroyed the Orks too, after they'd outlived their usefulness. He also tortured people for pure sadistic fun.

As for Orks, well they were corrupted from elves and/or mortals through torture and other horrific means. Originally Morgoth did it solely to offend Eru by ruining His creations, then figured they'd be useful as cannon fodder and slaves. And they were utterly miserable. JRRT in Letters compared this to institutionalized slavery, degredation, dehumanization in real life. Their lives sucked, and Sauron exploited them the same way Morgoth had.

The above mostly from Morgoth's Ring and Letters, IIRC.

JRRT did not believe anything could be utterly irredemable, but in fiction there's such a thing as a character with no extant redeeming qualities who refuses to be redeemed or even repent. That's my interpretation of Complete Monster, and I'd say Morgoth was one and Sauron became one.

Saruman is more of a grey figure — he fell and became quite vile, yet had not fallen to the same depths as Sauron. One passage in Unfinished Tales (in "Hunt for the Ring") has Saruman briefly repent when he sees the full horror of Mordor up close in the Ringwraiths. He rushes upstairs to find Gandalf and beg his pardon and help — and sees him flying away with Gwaihir. But then in rage he relapses and gives up his repentence.

edited 11th Dec '12 8:18:09 AM by ArcadesSabboth

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Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#30: Dec 16th 2012 at 8:16:54 AM

Sauron and Morgoth seem like pretty much archetypes of what RPGers would call, respectively, "Lawful Evil" and "Chaotic Evil." Neither style is necessarily more or less evil than the other; it's largely a matter of which aims they threaten to destroy your world in service of.

edited 16th Dec '12 8:17:06 AM by Jhimmibhob

ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#31: Dec 21st 2012 at 2:57:25 PM

They would be CE and LE in D&D, yes, but they can't be archetypes as such of those since they way predate that alignment system as a concept.

Well, Morgoth would probably be CE. I don't know if "everybody has to follow my rules but I'm above the law/create all law" really counts as LE.

In any case Saruman was very similar to Sauron, even in his liking for order, organization, and efficiency, and his possibly being originally attached to Aule.

Poor Aule — his followers have far and away the worst tendency for going bad.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#32: Dec 21st 2012 at 3:38:10 PM

[up]For what it's worth, I remember reading a forum topic on the official Wizards boards years ago that debated alignment for LOTR characters. Sauron was almost immediately pegged as "textbook LE" with no substantial dispute.

shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#33: Dec 21st 2012 at 3:59:50 PM

The difficulty with the alignment system is that it depends on point of view. From Eru's viewpoint, both would be Chaotic Evil because they rebelled against him, but from the orcs' viewpoint, they would be Lawful Neutral, because they were the orcs' rulers.

A Complete Monster is recognized by these signs (copied from trope page):

  • The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story, which makes no attempt to present the character in any positive way.
  • The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and hatred from the other characters in the story.
  • They are completely devoid of altruistic qualities. They show no regret for their crimes.

According to those definitions, I think both Morgoth and Sauron are Complete Monsters, Morgoth was one almost from the beginning and Sauron started Jumping Off the Slippery Slope once he started the War of the Elves and Sauron. Also, I don't think Sauron was ever a Well-Intentioned Extremist or a Knight Templar. Instead I think he was just delusional and thought he had good intentions for the inhabitants of Middle-Earth but really selfishly wanted to rule them all along, and only realized it once the elves rejected his rule and took off their rings.

edited 22nd Dec '12 11:12:01 AM by shiro_okami

ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#34: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:38:10 PM

One thing I can't remember is just when Sauron joined up with Morgoth (or rather, what was the last version JRRT had of his story). Was he corrupted during the Music, or in Arda before the destruction of the Lamps?

I am pretty sure he wasn't ever in Valinor — one of JRRT's points about Galadriel seeing through "Annatar"'s facade was that she could not recall every having heard of such a guy in Valinor, and he should have been important enough to be notable. And that version of the Eregion story had Celebrimbor as a guy from Gondolin — in the later version of him where he's the son of Curufin, and lived in Valinor himself, it just makes him look dumber that he didn't think of the same problem with "Annatar."

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#35: Dec 22nd 2012 at 5:10:33 PM

[up] He was corrupted before Morgoth destroyed the Lamps, so he likely never entered Valinor.

EDIT: [down] Oh yeah, I forgot about him acting as a spy.

edited 23rd Dec '12 7:20:35 AM by shiro_okami

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#36: Dec 23rd 2012 at 3:25:48 AM

It's been a long time since I read The Silmarillion, but going by the Wikipedia article, it seems that Sauron fell after entering Arda, but managed to keep up a facade of service to the Valar, acting as a spy for Melkor, both in Almaren and Valinor, before eventually leaving and openly joining Melkor.

A few quotes from the article, taken from various of Tolkien's works: (Text in quotes is attributed as mentioned after the quote; text not in quotes is from Wikipedia.)

"In the beginning of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegiance."
(Attributed to the Silmarillion)
"it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall ...) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction." Thus "it was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him." ... "Melkor knew of all that was done; for even then he had secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause, and of these the chief, as after became known, was Sauron."
(Attributed to Morgoth's Ring)
... for he too became "a being of Valinor"
(Of Sauron, attributed to The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien)

edited 23rd Dec '12 3:26:45 AM by ArsThaumaturgis

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Codafett Knows-Many-Things Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Knows-Many-Things
#37: Jan 6th 2014 at 6:18:19 PM

I don't think Complete Monster is really possible in Tolkien's world, due to the whole "Nothing is all evil". Even Morgoth, the source of all Arda's ,isfortune, isn't completely lost. Like only 99% so. Then again, there's always Ungoliant who is just nothing besides hunger.

Although, a thread like this really makes me wonder about Sauron's mental state. He started off wanting to be the savior of the Earth, and instill an everlasting order and peace. Then, some thousand years later his motivation has devolved into "Conquer, Subjugate, Control". In his defense though, he never wanted to grind reality into dust like Morgoth so he still had some self control. If WIE is a 1 and CM a 10, I'd give him an 6.

edited 30th Jan '14 4:02:46 PM by Codafett

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