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Wikileaks given data on swiss bank accounts

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Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#26: Jan 18th 2011 at 2:41:02 PM

Basically you owe society for taking care of you, and it's the collective responsibility of all the people living in a society to help contribute to its upkeep.

Unless they got me to sign a contract, it was a gift/donation/investment hoping I'd turn out better. Just because you have a justification for your actions doesn't mean they're right.

Fight smart, not fair.
Chalkos Sidequest Proliferator from The Internets Since: Oct, 2010
Sidequest Proliferator
#27: Jan 18th 2011 at 2:43:59 PM

It's called the 'social contract,' and you can opt out of it... by choosing not to exist in society.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#28: Jan 18th 2011 at 2:54:23 PM

And I follow the laws. Therefore I am staying within the bounds of the contract.

Fight smart, not fair.
GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#29: Jan 18th 2011 at 3:01:13 PM

And these folks aren't. At least, they're not following the rules set for people operating in America. What happens when two rule systems collide?

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#30: Jan 18th 2011 at 3:02:36 PM

Social Contract doesn't really apply anymore given that there isn't really anyplace left to escape society.

That said, I'd consider privacy pretty much null if someone within the organization comes forward with evidence of criminal action, thereby giving probable cause for further investigation.

edited 18th Jan '11 3:04:10 PM by Pykrete

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#31: Jan 18th 2011 at 3:08:07 PM

The contract theory breaks down.

Fight smart, not fair.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#32: Jan 18th 2011 at 6:06:25 PM

There's no place to escape society in general, but you certainly can escape individual societies.

silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#33: Jan 18th 2011 at 6:07:37 PM

You can hang out on the ocean if you really want to escape society. Eventually you'll have to refuel your ship, though...

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#34: Jan 18th 2011 at 6:11:39 PM

Unless you build a small fuel processing plant.

We should probably steer back toward banks though.

Fight smart, not fair.
WoolieWool Heading for tomorrow Since: Jan, 2001
Heading for tomorrow
#35: Jan 18th 2011 at 7:03:58 PM

The contract theory breaks down.
Considering it's the foundation of all First World countries, and none of those countries' governments are going anywhere anytime soon, I'd say the theory works pretty well. When nobody owes society everything and there are no restrictions on individual action, you get what is called a "state of nature", in other words "might makes right". Nobody except a warlord would want to live in a state of nature.

Out of Context Theater: Mike K "'Bloody Pussies' cracked me up"
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#36: Jan 18th 2011 at 8:18:42 PM

Unless all the nations around get just as bad or worse.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#37: Jan 18th 2011 at 8:20:55 PM

Would you say "enough people want it, therefore doing it is the right thing" across the board?

Fight smart, not fair.
WoolieWool Heading for tomorrow Since: Jan, 2001
Heading for tomorrow
#38: Jan 18th 2011 at 8:24:08 PM

How about "the countries that employ it (first world democracies) are MUCH more successful than the countries that do not"? And even those have some other philosophy that emphasizes the individual's obligation to society (like East Asian countries' famous collectivism). The closest things to a society where nobody is considered to owe the society anything are failed states like Somalia. Without some sort of obligation to the state/city/tribe/clan/band in which people live, a society will fall apart into chaos.

"Voluntary association" civilizations do not work. They have never worked. They never will work.

Unless all the nations around get just as bad or worse.
Almost all people, when it really comes down to it, would support even a tyrannical government over anarchy, because chaos is that bad. President Evil at least provides a modicum of order and security. The only real exceptions are to groups who are specifically targeted by a regime for repression.

edited 18th Jan '11 8:30:41 PM by WoolieWool

Out of Context Theater: Mike K "'Bloody Pussies' cracked me up"
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#39: Jan 18th 2011 at 8:31:03 PM

And being successful makes it the right thing to do?

Fight smart, not fair.
WoolieWool Heading for tomorrow Since: Jan, 2001
Heading for tomorrow
#40: Jan 18th 2011 at 8:40:03 PM

It means it's a better idea than one that results in total failure. The history of society without authority is a history of failure. Such societies fail. Success by definition is preferable to failure.

Out of Context Theater: Mike K "'Bloody Pussies' cracked me up"
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#41: Jan 18th 2011 at 8:49:14 PM

As long as you believe results are more important that justice, since by your definition, it's impossible to build a successful society that is just.

Fight smart, not fair.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#42: Jan 18th 2011 at 10:54:37 PM

Eh, Swiss Banks are out, Carribbean and mirconation banks are in. Big deal. There will always be a market for extreme privacy. The Swiss just aren't that anymore. Maybe they will be again one day, but right now no. *shrugs*

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#43: Jan 18th 2011 at 10:58:51 PM

Makes sense to me. Sacrificing interest rates for secrecy seems like a bad trade, but whatever.

Fight smart, not fair.
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#44: Jan 19th 2011 at 10:53:49 AM

I'd love to have a bank here in the states that offers a nice 7% interest rate on savings. I remember those when I was little. So it means that I get taxed on the interest, oh well - I'll still turn a profit, right?

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#45: Jan 19th 2011 at 12:07:02 PM

I think there's special rules about taxing interest earnings. I think it was to help provide incentive to further invest rather than bury money in a mattress.

Fight smart, not fair.
breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#46: Jan 19th 2011 at 12:14:24 PM

Well some of those rules only apply if you're rich. Most interest on bank accounts is treated as normal income, therefore taxed at your marginal income tax rate. On the other hand, the vast majority of the income of the richest come from stocks grants, options and so on, which are capital gains and taxed at only half the rate. So really, those super high income tax brackets they're in don't even matter.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#47: Jan 19th 2011 at 4:19:52 PM

That was it, it was capital gains tax, not regular interest. I knew it was some sort of "investment promotion" scheme.

Fight smart, not fair.
WoolieWool Heading for tomorrow Since: Jan, 2001
Heading for tomorrow
#48: Jan 19th 2011 at 7:44:59 PM

As long as you believe results are more important that justice, since by your definition, it's impossible to build a successful society that is just.

Total justice is only a hypothetical concept because human beings are not perfect eusocial telepathic hive creatures who can all join hands and sing Kum Ba Ya no matter how large or varied a society becomes. Also, since when was not paying your debts "just"? Society paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and God only knows how many man-hours of labor to raise you, and you think you owe it nothing for that?

Hell, how do you expect society or government to even function if nobody pays for it? Militaries, police, healthcare, sanitation, transportation, telecommunications, plumbing, education, disease control, courts, and other features of civilization we take for granted are expensive.

Eh, Swiss Banks are out, Carribbean and mirconation banks are in. Big deal.

We should pull all of our troops out of Iraq and deploy them to invade liberate the Cayman Islands immediately! Operation Cayman Freedom!evil grin

I just know Poe's Law is going to bite me in the ass one day.

edited 19th Jan '11 7:48:36 PM by WoolieWool

Out of Context Theater: Mike K "'Bloody Pussies' cracked me up"
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#49: Jan 20th 2011 at 1:43:58 AM

A person doesn't ow society anything for being raised because it was both mandatory and not a choice by the individual who receives it. And once the balance is equaled, either through payback or getting someone else to pay it for you, all societal obligations are met.

Fight smart, not fair.
Star_Kindler from Here, of course Since: Mar, 2010
#50: Jan 20th 2011 at 1:59:56 AM

You can never fully pay back the debt, that's the trap. Every red cent an American earns is from the infrastructure society provides. Other countries work the same way, but with different colored moneys. Rich people are subject to this even more so than you (assuming you are middle class) and I. I can earn some money and only briefly skim the surface of the vast workings of the nations. Rich people operate with much larger sums, much larger costs, much larger groups.

So they owe me, for the money I have given the government such that they and others might have what we now do.

C'est la vie.

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