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Is there a finite number of possible human ideas?

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BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#1: Jan 17th 2011 at 9:55:06 AM

That is to say, is there a limit to what ideas the human mind can grasp? Are there possible notions which are, in practice, beyond human conception, either due to their complexity or due to some other limitation of the human brain?

Just wondered.

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breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#2: Jan 17th 2011 at 9:56:56 AM

Possibly, but it doesn't matter because some of the possible thoughts of the human mind is how to expand the human mind, so unless there's some unknown physical limit on expanding brain power, we shouldn't have an issue.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#3: Jan 17th 2011 at 9:59:22 AM

Well, I think some things scientists work on already are. I remember reading that nobody really understands quantum mechanics, and that some other experiments worked on are basically too complex and we use computers to do it instead.

Could people do the math by hand with pen and paper? Probably. Eventually. Would they really understand the results? Doubt it.

edited 17th Jan '11 9:59:29 AM by Arha

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#4: Jan 17th 2011 at 11:26:07 AM

No. Obviously not.

The concept "1" is an idea. The concept "22" is an idea.

Since there are infinite numbers, there are infinite ideas in just that one direction.

Of course there's more meaningful variation in other places, but you can't make a mathematical proof of that.

Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#5: Jan 17th 2011 at 11:27:25 AM

I dunno. To think about a number we have to have a finitely long description of it?

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Tsukubus I Care Not... from [REDACTED] Since: Aug, 2010
I Care Not...
#6: Jan 17th 2011 at 11:27:26 AM

Of course. The human brains is still a mere object and still subject to physical limitations. Whether we've hit anything close to that finite limit, I doubt it, but it certainly exists.

"I didn't steal it; I'm borrowing it until I die."
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#7: Jan 17th 2011 at 12:00:45 PM

@Tzetze: Oh, there is a finite amount of information we can think about at any one time, but given infinite time a human could think infinite different thoughts.

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#8: Jan 17th 2011 at 12:17:57 PM

We might be able to conceive of an infinite number of things (numbers, although is it possible that if we carried on forever we'd reach a point where no human being could grasp the difference between the values because they were simply too huge?), but numbers are far from the only things human beings can think of. The ability of humans to conceptualise an infinite number of real numbers does not necessarily imply that we can conceptualise every possible thing.

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Yej (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#9: Jan 17th 2011 at 12:19:05 PM

There are infinitely many mathematical theorems. Ergo, there are infinitely many possible thoughts. (Assuming that you have an infinite piece of paper and immortality, of course.)

edited 17th Jan '11 12:19:38 PM by Yej

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#10: Jan 17th 2011 at 12:20:46 PM

@Bobby: But that's a different question entirely from the title. "Infinitely many ideas" is not the same thing as "every possible idea".

I think we can conceive of every possible idea too, but it's not really possible to prove it either way.

edited 17th Jan '11 12:20:56 PM by BlackHumor

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#11: Jan 17th 2011 at 12:23:34 PM

I guess the thread title is inaccurate, then. I realise that we can come up with an endless number of mathematical theorems, but we can also imagine many other things besides (alarm clocks, hat stands, postmodernism, the London Underground, etc.) which exist completely outside the realm of mathematics as an academic discipline. My question was more along the lines of whether there are notions which theoretically could be conceived of, but which no human mind could ever grasp.

edited 17th Jan '11 12:24:08 PM by BobbyG

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Chagen46 Dude Looks Like a Lady from I don't really know Since: Jan, 2010
#12: Jan 17th 2011 at 12:24:34 PM

I say no. The human brain is an absolutely breathtaking organ/machine. Even if I do not believe that Humans Are Special, I do believe that we have infinite possibilities and ideas.

"Who wants to hear about good stuff when the bottom of the abyss of human failure that you know doesn't exist is so much greater?"-Wraith
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#13: Jan 17th 2011 at 12:24:41 PM

Given infinite time a human would die.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#14: Jan 17th 2011 at 12:26:28 PM

^^^ Are you allowing for computers humans built to continue their work? I think we're probably reaching our limit on certain subjects, but a computer that we built could take it even further.

Yej (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#15: Jan 17th 2011 at 12:27:57 PM

@Black Humor, depends, really. If there are countably infinite possible ideas, a single human could think all of them, given enough time. But there's also a stage above that, called an uncountable infinity, which could only be exhausted if you had an infinite number of humans working for infinitely long each.

@Bobby Only through sheer size.

EDIT: Got ninja'd.

edited 17th Jan '11 12:29:13 PM by Yej

Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#16: Jan 17th 2011 at 12:53:41 PM

So long as there are human needs and desires, there will be ideas that try to fill them.

feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#17: Jan 17th 2011 at 7:22:19 PM

On infinite expansion of numbers: I would question the idea that the human mind can grasp "one million and one" as a separate idea from "one million and two," rather than merely a slightly different sequence of sounds.

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deathjavu This foreboding is fa... from The internet, obviously Since: Feb, 2010
This foreboding is fa...
#18: Jan 17th 2011 at 7:34:35 PM

My question was more along the lines of whether there are notions which theoretically could be conceived of, but which no human mind could ever grasp.

I'd say this depends on the level of comprehension you're referring to. On some level, the individual details of any given object are just too numerous, they would be larger than the number of possible "things" a person could store as data. There is, in fact, some sort of limit to the amount of information a brain can hold, and unless it's a larger number than all the particles in existence+all math+all physics, we couldn't comprehend everything.

Of course, there's no reason we couldn't become smart enough to enhance our brains, and surpass these limitations...

edited 17th Jan '11 7:34:59 PM by deathjavu

Look, you can't make me speak in a logical, coherent, intelligent bananna.
ZheToralf Floating Advice Reminder from somewhere in Germany Since: Dec, 2009
#19: Jan 18th 2011 at 12:47:14 AM

can you comprehend a 4 dimensional cube? Sure there are 3 dimensional representations of that, but there are still 3d, not 4d. And if you really could describe and imagine a truly 4 dimensional cube/object, what about 5 dimensions? What about 6?

If the universe is endless, imagine endless. If the universe has an end, imagine the end. Is it solid, can you touch it? What happens if u do, and what comes after that end?

There ARE ideas our mind can't comprehend, mainly because we can only comprehend ideas that are composed of other ideas we know. Things we experienced.

Next example: Colors. If we could see a wider spectrum of light, we could see new colors. What would they look like, can you imagine? I guess not, since we imagine colors based on the one we know.

How do you explain light and vision to a blind? How do you explain sound to a deaf?

long speech short: I truly and absolutly believe that we can not comprehend what we can not perceive. (or describe through perceivable ideas)

Thus, there is our limit.

edited 18th Jan '11 1:24:26 AM by ZheToralf

You lost!
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#20: Jan 18th 2011 at 6:42:33 AM

Black Humour: think of it this way: a thought, and idea, must be held at one single time in the brain. It must be a file that can fit the RAM. If it doesn't fit the RAM, it's not a thought, but a collection of them.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Yej (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#21: Jan 18th 2011 at 9:36:29 AM

@Zhe Toralf, would a 4D sphere do? Because that's just x2+y2+z2+w2=1. tongue

edited 18th Jan '11 9:36:42 AM by Yej

ZheToralf Floating Advice Reminder from somewhere in Germany Since: Dec, 2009
Yej (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#23: Jan 18th 2011 at 10:19:56 AM

Well, I can just about imagine one point on it. That's enough.

Though more seriously, I'm fairly sure thinking in 4D is just a matter of practice, rather than some unassailable problem.

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#24: Jan 18th 2011 at 11:37:24 AM

I'm not so sure. How do you go about putting two 4D objects in contact with each other and have them roll around each other?

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#25: Jan 18th 2011 at 11:40:41 AM

Whaddya mean «how»? How do you roll 3d objects around each other? It's not much of a question.

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