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A kind of research: political terms in American and British English

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kurushio Happy Human from Berlin, Germany Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: I've got a total eclipse of the heart
Happy Human
#1: Jan 17th 2011 at 3:57:06 AM

Dear tropers from the English speaking countries beyond the small and the big pond,

I'd like to ask for your help. Partly because I enjoy political discussions, and partly because I sometimes work in the media, I like to keep my English as precise and free of translation traps as possible. The sad truth is that German media can't even translate '[president of choice] administration' correctly, but when they hit terms like 'socialist', 'conservative, 'liberal', 'libertarian', 'leftist' etc. they are kind of overwhelmed and chose very literal translations without taking different cultural interpretations and false friends in mind.

So, without wanting to turn this into a flame fest, I'd really like to ask...:

- Do terms like the above and those I can't think of right now have the same meaning in AE and BE? (I might add other words to the list when my brain stops asking for more PCM.)

- What exact meaning do they have? Is, for example, 'liberal' a lable for economic or personal freedom... liberty... (Okay, found another question: What's the exact difference between freedom and liberty?), or does it depend on the context in which it is used?

- Are the commonly used terms relativily neutral ones or do they imply insult/criticism, depending on the speaker? (Or: Do I have to be insulted by someone who calls Germany a socialist country or is it more of a matter-of-fact statement, in a term that implies different things here and over at your place?)

Something like that. I'm not looking for Webster's or wikipedia's definitions here, but for a feeling on the day-to-day usage of political vocabulary.

Thanks, kurushio

Justyn Since: Jan, 2001
#2: Jan 17th 2011 at 6:23:33 AM

Okay, I'd be happy to help give the definitions on the American parlance, these aren't going I'll try to keep my... commentary to a minimum and.

With the exclusion of "leftist" and "rightist", I'm just going to do this alphabetically simply to minimize bias; mind you, I'm only human, and a product of my culture, so my biases will show through under scrutiny. But I'm trying to stay neutral here, and and I'm giving you some degree of forewarning that these definitions are not the ones you'll find in a dictionary.

Because I'm not even sure if we use the same definitions for "left" and "right" here: [1] This is a good idea of roughly what the right and the left are, at least in America; I'm fairly certain it came from England, but it holds true for the US as well.

"Conservative": to put this ideology very simply, it is application of "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" to economic and political decision-making. American Conservativism is a largely rightist movement (and is what many Americans think of when they think of the right), and is quite reactionary. Conservatives tend to be religious, but I'm not sure how the two are connected exactly; I have my beliefs, but I won't post them here.

Liberal: Here is the first huge disconnect between American and European politics. You still use the original definition of this, but it has changed over here; while still socially the same (for the most part), Liberals have taken to accepting, even demanding, vast governmental controls over the economy. This change happened in the 1920s, when the authoritarian Progressive movement's ideologies bled into this movement's.

Libertarian: Libertarianism, in modern parlance, is what Americans say when they refer to what you still call Liberalism; Libertarianism is typically part of the "right" of the political spectrum, simply by nature of the American left being more Collectivist than the right.

Socialism: This means the same thing over here as it does over there; with the exception that it is irrevocably connected to the Soviet Union in the minds of many Americans; I won't go into any more detail, because simply, I dislike Socialism as a concept, and anything I say on the matter will be heavy biased.

snailbait bitchy queen from psych ward Since: Jul, 2010
bitchy queen
#3: Jan 17th 2011 at 7:18:33 AM

[/Attempts to make a less biased post]

Conservative (right-winged): Want less government regulation. Tend to be socially conservative (oppose secularization, oppose abortion, etc.)

Libertarian (right-winged): Want less government regulation. This seeps into social issues too because they believe that the government should not interfere with people's lives (essentially they are socially liberal).

Liberal (left-winged): Want more government regulation. Tend to be socially liberal (support secularization, support abortion, support gay marriage, etc.)

Socialism is a bad word in the U.S. for the most part. However, I like the policies that places like Sweden and Denmark have so not every American is adverse to it.

I also want to mention that everyone is different in how they perceive politics, so just because someone describes themselves as "conservative" or "liberal", this does not mean they follow or believe everything their definition dictates. Many people who do not consider themselves so far to the left or so far to the right (they're in the middle) describe themselves as "moderates". People who describe themselves as part of neither party are considered "independents".

edited 17th Jan '11 7:31:06 AM by snailbait

"Without a fairy, you're not even a real man!" ~ Mido from Ocarina of Time
Arikitari from Denmark Since: Jan, 2011
#4: Jan 17th 2011 at 7:54:53 AM

Oh, I feel your pain -.- ...I often get confused or confuse people by mixing these things up. See, in my terms, The Democrats are socialists as compared to The Republicans who I would put as ..hm.. right-wing. A mix of liberalism and conservatism.

I only recently learnt that this is very wrong in american terms. This link defines conservative and liberal beliefs in america: http://www.sodahead.com/fun/conservative-vs-liberal-beliefs/blog-169209/

I thought it kinda helped me.

And I'm afraid you might have to feel slightly insulted if people call Germany socialist, since many Americans seem to think of socialism as communism and communism as stalinism. I'm not sure, though?

So I'm definitely gonna stick around and read along on the answers to this post..:)

apassingthought Moments Like Ghosts from the Fantasy Ghetto Since: Aug, 2010
Moments Like Ghosts
#5: Jan 17th 2011 at 8:03:48 AM

It may also be worthy to note that one can be both "socially liberal" and "economically conservative" (or vice-versa — socially conservative and economically liberal). For example, someone who is socially liberal but economically conservative would likely  *

support gay rights and abortion but also prefer conservative economic policy (free markets, less government regulation, etc.)

Another thing — though socialism is kind of a "bad word", the United States already has many socialism-esque institutions in place: medicare, medicaid, and social security, among others.

edited 17th Jan '11 8:05:06 AM by apassingthought

kurushio Happy Human from Berlin, Germany Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: I've got a total eclipse of the heart
Happy Human
#6: Jan 17th 2011 at 8:38:09 AM

Yay, input. Thanks so far.

@Justyn: Yeah, the "American Libertarian" equals "European Liberal" thing is one of the most interesting aspects of this topic. ("American Liberal", on the other hand, would equal "Social Democrat" over here.) Thanks for the root of this change.

@Arikitari: Thanks for the link (and the shared pain.) Nah, I wouldn't feel insulted, only slightly baffled. :) (And I'd try to explain why we don't see ourselves like that.)

@apassingthought and snailbait: Things like the Scandinavian welfare states, medicare or social security are considered socialism-ish? Interesting. (No, I'm not snarking, just learning - it was called socialism here, too, but not in the last 60-100 years. Like the word liberal, it seems to have evolved differently.)

edited 17th Jan '11 8:39:25 AM by kurushio

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#7: Jan 17th 2011 at 9:05:37 AM

To 99% of Americans, socialism = communism = Stalinism = BAD. Socialist is a political insult generally used by the right against the left (not as much as communist, though, which has a nicer ring to it) despite being actually fairly applicable to many parts of America.

I'd argue that Stalinism is the natural result of communism, and so that link makes some sense, but that may just be my political bias showing.

We've already said about all there is to say about right, left, conservative and liberal, so I won't add that.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
snailbait bitchy queen from psych ward Since: Jul, 2010
bitchy queen
#8: Jan 17th 2011 at 9:09:13 AM

@Kurushio: Well, many people in America consider national health care and the like as socialist. Some even want to get rid of social security. Now from what I've read on Wikipedia, Scandinavian countries have "Democratic socialism". This definition is loosely defined, of course, so people there might disagree. That's why I made the connection.

"Without a fairy, you're not even a real man!" ~ Mido from Ocarina of Time
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#9: Jan 17th 2011 at 9:12:51 AM

In the US, "Socialism" means anything to the left of the Republicans. They've been very successful at setting the vocabulary of the media lately.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
HungryJoe Gristknife from Under the Tree Since: Dec, 2009
Gristknife
#10: Jan 17th 2011 at 9:22:04 AM

Yeah, the terminology in use at the moment isn't exactly the most accurate in terms of even the American interpretation.

That plus the fact Palin's a page-a-day calendar of soundbites and neologisms that are either made-up or based off of using an old phrase incorrectly, and following our politics gets pretty difficult.

Snailbait has it pretty much nailed, although a lot of the connotations of each word are hard to express.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#11: Jan 17th 2011 at 9:48:20 AM

In the UK, the terms "liberal" and "libertarian" are seldom used, but mean more-or-less the same as they do in the USA. "Liberal" is also sometimes used in the European sense, however. Conservatism is strongly associated with the right-wing (our major right-wing party being the Conservatives), but less closely associated with religion, although it may be worth noting that the UK is officially a Christian country; religion in general is simply not that much of a political talking point here.

Socialism is a bit trickier to pin down; traditionally, the Labour party (most popular left-wing party in England) has been socialist, but I think most Britons would agree that it is not a socialist party now, and that Britain is not a socialist country. The term is sometimes applied to more left-wing European countries such as Sweden, but I think most would agree that, say, France, Germany or Canada were not socialist countries. Again, it's associated with the Soviet Union, but I believe the word has more of a stigma attached to it in America than it has over here.

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HungryJoe Gristknife from Under the Tree Since: Dec, 2009
Gristknife
#12: Jan 17th 2011 at 10:12:51 AM

Yeah, despite the fact that a lot of the people most afraid of The Big Red Wolf are on Social Security, socialism is pretty much the dirtiest word you can use in politics around here.

Also:

religion in general is simply not that much of a political talking point here.

Not going to touch that one.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#13: Jan 17th 2011 at 10:17:16 AM

(Not implying that it necessarily is a talking point in America, only that it definitely isn't one here. I have, however, noticed that the term "religious right" is commonly used with reference to a large - or vocal - subset of American right-wingers, which is not the case in Britain.)

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SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#14: Jan 17th 2011 at 10:34:00 AM

Someone used "socially liberal" somewhere up above- funny thing, in the UK social liberalism is a specific thing, distinct from classical liberalism (laissez faire) by including social progressivism. I think the logic goes like this. Social liberalism- we want a free society unconstrained by the state...but society is not yet free without some state action.

HungryJoe Gristknife from Under the Tree Since: Dec, 2009
Gristknife
#15: Jan 17th 2011 at 10:35:34 AM

Oh, it can certainly be in the US. Mainly in regards to gay marriage, abortion and Obama's middle name.

What I was implying is that a certain religion is kind of a hot topic, at least from some of the tropers I've seen around.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#16: Jan 17th 2011 at 10:40:09 AM

Don't forget the "War on Christmas"

edited 17th Jan '11 10:40:37 AM by storyyeller

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
HungryJoe Gristknife from Under the Tree Since: Dec, 2009
Gristknife
#17: Jan 17th 2011 at 10:52:08 AM

Oh yes, that is something to keep in mind: The Democrats/left are worried about political correctness and to some degree equality of result.

The Republicans have a lot of members who aren't exactly the most pro-diversity.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
Tsukubus I Care Not... from [REDACTED] Since: Aug, 2010
I Care Not...
#18: Jan 17th 2011 at 10:52:55 AM

Well, if the topic maker is German, that makes it a lot easier because the Germans have a very neat political system.

Liberal in the United States can really mean anywhere between where the Greens, The Left, Social Democrats, and the Christian Democrats fall. Generally, the right-wing has made liberal into somewhat of a bad word, so most people who call themselves that tend to be very leftist. The nucleus of the modern Democratic Party is comparable to the Social Democratic Party, but there are a lot of politicians (although shrinking in number) who aren't too different from Christian Democrats (especially Southern Democrats), and a lot of politicians who aren't too different from Die Linke (especially minorities), steadily growing. And kind of like what Die Linke does to the SDP, this minority bloc makes it harder for American liberals to govern and stuff.

Conservative is generally a very popular term that 45%ish of the population tends to call themselves. But it tends to stretch between a large variety of political views mostly because liberal has been turned into a bad word, so it really doesn't mean that much either. I mean, if you take the foreign and social views of KT, and mix them with the business view of the FDP, it comes pretty close to US conservatism. But many US conservatives fall into a very squishy Grand Coalition-style governing style. Unsurprisingly enough, US conservatives regularly throw bombs at each other a lot like how the CDU/FDP throw bombs at each other.

Libertarian is a strange term. There really isn't a libertarian platform, or a libertarian ideological bloc, but it's more of an ideological orientation toward smaller government. There can be libertarian-orientated liberals and libertarian-orientated conservatives, although the latter is far larger.

The important term nobody touches on is progressive, and it's a more common term than liberal because it's considered not to really have that negative connotation. Most people who call themselves progressive tend to fall in that Die Linke-leaning segment of American leftism.

edited 17th Jan '11 10:55:58 AM by Tsukubus

"I didn't steal it; I'm borrowing it until I die."
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#19: Jan 17th 2011 at 10:56:35 AM

What I was implying is that a certain religion is kind of a hot topic, at least from some of the tropers I've seen around.

Oh, that religion. Sorry, I meant Christianity. My bad.

Yeah, I guess that's been controversial lately.

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Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#20: Jan 17th 2011 at 11:03:21 AM

By the sounds of it, it seems so...

But from a British point of view, religion is (on the whole) a non-issue. Any mention of religion as happens in American Politics would be embarrassing at beast, an either an immediate turn-off or cause of derision (and laughter) at worst.

As Kate Fox said in her book about the English - us British are moderate in everything - religion included.

Keep Rolling On
myrdschaem Since: Dec, 2010
#21: Jan 17th 2011 at 11:06:50 AM

This blog helped me alot with the problem: http://usaerklaert.wordpress.com/2008/04/18/liberal-in-den-usa/

The rest is great too. /pimp

pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#22: Jan 17th 2011 at 11:18:22 AM

Just expanding on Bobby's post a bit: both the Labour Party and the Conservative Party are both a lot closer to the political centre than the Democrats and the Republicans are. The third biggest party, the Liberal Democrats, are a bit of a political mongrel in that they're a merger of the old Liberal and Social Democrat parties.

As to religion not being a political talking point in the UK: I believe that it speaks volumes that both the deputy prime minister and the leader of the opposition are self-declared atheists. Neither make a big fuss about it, and neither attract any flak for it. That simply is not a situation that could occur in US politics as they currently stand.

edited 17th Jan '11 11:19:31 AM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
HungryJoe Gristknife from Under the Tree Since: Dec, 2009
Gristknife
#23: Jan 17th 2011 at 11:43:01 AM

I didn't know that and frankly it's mindblowing. An atheist would become president in the US only if he was running against a Muslim.

Although we kind of look down our noses on the established religion bit and the blashpemy laws, that's a point that should be driven home in the US.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
Arikitari from Denmark Since: Jan, 2011
#24: Jan 17th 2011 at 11:58:35 AM

[up]

Really? Now THAT is mindblowing.. *suddenly lost most of her faith in American politics*

snailbait bitchy queen from psych ward Since: Jul, 2010
bitchy queen
#25: Jan 17th 2011 at 1:01:55 PM

^ Most Americans already have including myself. Join the club :D

"Without a fairy, you're not even a real man!" ~ Mido from Ocarina of Time

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