If I knew Alice pre-reform I still would likely not like all that much. Same for Bob pre reform. Meeting both post change. I would have more in common with bob for patently obvious reasons.
I would find bob's change more impressive. I don't think realize how hard that change is to make. Alice's change is not a cakewalk by any means but by comparison the number of obstacles to overcome is more significant for bob from my point of view.
Also of note having been a position of weakness and finding you can overcome and seeing others just give up is rather frustrating.
Alice post change may be good company and pleasant to talk to but Bob pulled himself together.
edited 15th Jan '11 7:14:39 PM by TuefelHundenIV
Who watches the watchmen?While I think Bob might inspire more admiration, I find Alice's transformation more impressive. I think it's much more difficult to realize a flaw about yourself such as that you're a massive asshole instead of insisting that the people you hurt need to get over it than realizing you need to be tougher to get by.
To me, Alice's change required more concentrated effort - Bob's change was likely fueled by growing up, as a number of people make similar transitions as they hit their stride when they leave high school and find out who they are outside of the rigid and unstable system that is the high school social system. Bob's change is more what I'd expect, in other words, as part of the growing up process, where Alice's required more mental hoops to be cleared and more work overall.
BTW, I'm a chick.Bob seemed to have turned into an asshole, so I'd like Alice more. "Whiny and Weak" bob would be better.
this.
WHASSUP....... ....with lolis!And growing up and learning to deal doesn't? You could also argue that Alice's transformation was merely growing up and just a phase and in the same vein she matured and hit her stride. Getting your act together after being on the bottom requires quite a few mental hoops unto itself.
Who watches the watchmen?It's happened to friends I knew in high school. One was this irritating gang banger who lightened up after a while, another was this emo shy kid who turned into a 4chan IRL troll after one summer who insulted everyone (he got better after a while, since I pissed him off a lot). I much preferred the former.
edited 15th Jan '11 9:24:44 PM by JackMackerel
Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.Admitting your weak is not easy as you think either. This means admitting that you are flawed and you need to change who you are. Still in the same boat as Alice at this point. Addressing a weakness can be quite difficult depending on what your weakness is. Conquering powerful fears or physical inadequacies is quite difficult and very often very time consuming. Stopping being a dick not so much.
Plus there may be physical factors that make you weak and overcoming those would add layers of struggle that is not considered yet. But on the same level say Alice has some sort of condition that makes it easier to be a dick then a nice person that could also apply to Alice.
I think some of you folks are selling Bob's potential issues short and dismissing them as comparatively trivial because you do not like the outcome and are attempting to rationalize Alice's single issue (being an asshole and then deciding to be nice as a greater achievement)
Of course if we knew in what way Alice was an ass and bob was weak we could more clearly argue for a superior candidate. As it stands the original statement overall leaves the possibilities to be anything we choose them to be.
edited 15th Jan '11 9:29:44 PM by TuefelHundenIV
Who watches the watchmen?^ I'm not trying to justify anything. I think I actually like Bob more because Alice sounds like someone that might get on my nerves. I can deal with self satisfied people so long as they aren't like that all the time and really blatant about it. Recognizing your own weakness may not be easy, either, but I think more people manage to do it. Or even if they won't admit it will take steps to correct it. The opposite situation doesn't really let you do that as easily.
Fair enough on the rationalizing part.
I would consider Alice's problem a weakness in itself as it will eventually occur to her that it is a flaw and damaging to her character and social standing. The real question is once they recognize their issues how far do they have to go to address them? The more severe the various issues for either of them more overall effort they will individually need to put forth.
Lets say Alice is one of those really mean nasty people who deliberately manipulates others in her efforts to be an asshole and has done so for years and Bob just needs learn to speak up a little louder and stand up straight (you would be surprised how much these help and are probably the easiest forms of Perceived weakness to fix). In this case I would say Alice realizing what she has done and the steps needed to change the situation as well as repair damage she has caused would raise her above bob who just needs to speak up and stand up straighter.
edited 15th Jan '11 9:42:06 PM by TuefelHundenIV
Who watches the watchmen?Bob, since becoming stronger is more difficult in my eyes than restraining oneself from disobeying social norms.
To be honest this was me as a child OP, I made that transformation and got to the point of where I mock weakness and can't be offended.
As to who has the better achievement? I think I agree with you. Alice would be easy to get along with, but at the risk of tooting my own horn, I find Bob to be more impressive, I'm proud of the way I changed during my youth.
Alice made the better transformation, because temperance is a virtue and pride is a sin.
edited 15th Jan '11 10:41:08 PM by Grain
Anime geemu wo shinasai!"being weak" =/= "being flawed and needing to change".
given "weak and whiny" is a subjective term and he could've simply grew up around assholes,.....lol no.
You're proud of becoming an asshole
edited 15th Jan '11 10:49:34 PM by BalloonFleet
WHASSUP....... ....with lolis!"being weak" =/= "being flawed and needing to change: try reading the OP again.
Weakness is a flaw by the way. If you can prove weakness is a virtue I will change my opinion. Also it is pointed out that from the perspective of the people we are examining he saw it as a flaw and needed to change. Try again balloon.
Who watches the watchmen?But not all flaws need to be fixed. In fact, not all flaws can be fixed.
Weak (I'm going to assume physically unless someone says otherwise) is not too much of a disadvantage in today's world. Brains can get you rather far, as can a quick tongue and sharp wit.
Besides, if you do have a big problem with other people pushing you around, you can always make some friends who can help you with that.
On the subject of the actual question, I would actually find Alice's to be both more impressive and admirable. It took her the strength of will to realize how much of a humongous bitch she was, and the attitude to change it.
Bob, on the other hand, had a bit of a problem with bullies, and maybe took it a bit too far. Certainly it took him some willpower to make his change as well, but not nearly as much as Alice.
Of course, they're both rather impressive achievements. I certainly wouldn't mind some of Bob's self esteem.
edited 15th Jan '11 11:20:57 PM by Deathonabun
One of my few regrets about being born female is the inability to grow a handlebar mustache. -Landstander....given you can take out enemies without using masive strength using stuff as simply as pissing off, harassing and wearing down your enemy over a period of time - among things like simply shooting someone or using some weapon, i'd say "strength" isnt as necessary as you think.
EDIT: also jumping your enemy as the guy above mentioned.
Yeah the premise is screwed from the beginning
edited 15th Jan '11 11:23:30 PM by BalloonFleet
WHASSUP....... ....with lolis!

Partly inspired by this post
.
Let's say we have two people, Alice and Bob. Alice used to be a massive jerk to everybody, but she decided she didn't want to be like that anymore, and now she's really nice to everybody.
Bob used to be kind of weak and whiny, and was basically pushed around and mocked by everybody. He's since toughened up and is a much more confident, independent person. It's basically impossible to offend Bob, and he's really in control of his life. He's also developed a disdain for people who are easily offended and people who can't stand up for themselves, as well as a rather self-satisfied attitude.
Now, my questions are, who do you think underwent the most impressive transformation? And who would you like more?
I was slightly bothered to realise that while I would probably like Alice more, I find Bob's accomplishment considerably more impressive. I think this explains a lot of my gut reactions towards other people, as well as some of my political beliefs (and my disagreements with certain other, popular political mindsets).
So, who do you find the most impressive of the two? And who would you like more, as a person? Are they the same, or different?
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