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BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#1: Jan 15th 2011 at 7:02:06 PM

Partly inspired by this post.

Let's say we have two people, Alice and Bob. Alice used to be a massive jerk to everybody, but she decided she didn't want to be like that anymore, and now she's really nice to everybody.

Bob used to be kind of weak and whiny, and was basically pushed around and mocked by everybody. He's since toughened up and is a much more confident, independent person. It's basically impossible to offend Bob, and he's really in control of his life. He's also developed a disdain for people who are easily offended and people who can't stand up for themselves, as well as a rather self-satisfied attitude.

Now, my questions are, who do you think underwent the most impressive transformation? And who would you like more?

I was slightly bothered to realise that while I would probably like Alice more, I find Bob's accomplishment considerably more impressive. I think this explains a lot of my gut reactions towards other people, as well as some of my political beliefs (and my disagreements with certain other, popular political mindsets).

So, who do you find the most impressive of the two? And who would you like more, as a person? Are they the same, or different?

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LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#2: Jan 15th 2011 at 7:05:54 PM

Personally, I think that while Bob's transformation might have taken more effort and be more 'impressive', I wouldn't think it was terribly admirable.

Be not afraid...
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#3: Jan 15th 2011 at 7:08:11 PM

I think Alice has the more acceptable transformation, but Bob's is more likely to make him successful — the people he works for are unlikely to fall into the type he has obvious disdain for.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#4: Jan 15th 2011 at 7:11:41 PM

If I knew Alice pre-reform I still would likely not like all that much. Same for Bob pre reform. Meeting both post change. I would have more in common with bob for patently obvious reasons.

I would find bob's change more impressive. I don't think realize how hard that change is to make. Alice's change is not a cakewalk by any means but by comparison the number of obstacles to overcome is more significant for bob from my point of view.

Also of note having been a position of weakness and finding you can overcome and seeing others just give up is rather frustrating.

Alice post change may be good company and pleasant to talk to but Bob pulled himself together.

edited 15th Jan '11 7:14:39 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
melloncollie Since: Feb, 2012
#5: Jan 15th 2011 at 7:12:50 PM

What Pykrete said.

To elaborate on Tuefel's last point, you might like being around Alice more, but have more admiration for Bob.

edited 15th Jan '11 7:13:45 PM by melloncollie

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#6: Jan 15th 2011 at 7:42:11 PM

While I think Bob might inspire more admiration, I find Alice's transformation more impressive. I think it's much more difficult to realize a flaw about yourself such as that you're a massive asshole instead of insisting that the people you hurt need to get over it than realizing you need to be tougher to get by.

Yamikuronue So Yeah Since: Aug, 2009
#7: Jan 15th 2011 at 7:51:34 PM

To me, Alice's change required more concentrated effort - Bob's change was likely fueled by growing up, as a number of people make similar transitions as they hit their stride when they leave high school and find out who they are outside of the rigid and unstable system that is the high school social system. Bob's change is more what I'd expect, in other words, as part of the growing up process, where Alice's required more mental hoops to be cleared and more work overall.

BTW, I'm a chick.
BalloonFleet MASTER-DEBATER from Chicago, IL, USA Since: Jun, 2010
MASTER-DEBATER
#8: Jan 15th 2011 at 8:26:49 PM

Bob seemed to have turned into an asshole, so I'd like Alice more. "Whiny and Weak" bob would be better.

I think Alice has the more acceptable transformation, but Bob's is more likely to make him successful — the people he works for are unlikely to fall into the type he has obvious disdain for.

this.

WHASSUP....... ....with lolis!
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#9: Jan 15th 2011 at 8:28:00 PM

And growing up and learning to deal doesn't? You could also argue that Alice's transformation was merely growing up and just a phase and in the same vein she matured and hit her stride. Getting your act together after being on the bottom requires quite a few mental hoops unto itself.

Who watches the watchmen?
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#10: Jan 15th 2011 at 8:48:08 PM

Realizing and admitting that you're in the wrong is harder than realizing you're weak.

Penguin4Senate Since: Aug, 2009
#11: Jan 15th 2011 at 8:52:43 PM

Now, my questions are, who do you think underwent the most impressive transformation?

It's impossible to say, since I have no way of knowing how much effort each one had to put in.

And who would you like more?

Alice. Bob's attitude sounds unpleasant, no matter how well it works for him.

Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#12: Jan 15th 2011 at 8:53:12 PM

Then again, depending on what kind of weak you are, the moral improvement can be far easier than the societal one. Having been through both, the social skills and self-confidence thing had more stubborn inertia.

edited 15th Jan '11 8:53:35 PM by Pykrete

JackMackerel from SOME OBSCURE MEDIA Since: Jul, 2010
#13: Jan 15th 2011 at 9:18:12 PM

It's happened to friends I knew in high school. One was this irritating gang banger who lightened up after a while, another was this emo shy kid who turned into a 4chan IRL troll after one summer who insulted everyone (he got better after a while, since I pissed him off a lot). I much preferred the former.

edited 15th Jan '11 9:24:44 PM by JackMackerel

Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#14: Jan 15th 2011 at 9:29:06 PM

Admitting your weak is not easy as you think either. This means admitting that you are flawed and you need to change who you are. Still in the same boat as Alice at this point. Addressing a weakness can be quite difficult depending on what your weakness is. Conquering powerful fears or physical inadequacies is quite difficult and very often very time consuming. Stopping being a dick not so much.

Plus there may be physical factors that make you weak and overcoming those would add layers of struggle that is not considered yet. But on the same level say Alice has some sort of condition that makes it easier to be a dick then a nice person that could also apply to Alice.

I think some of you folks are selling Bob's potential issues short and dismissing them as comparatively trivial because you do not like the outcome and are attempting to rationalize Alice's single issue (being an asshole and then deciding to be nice as a greater achievement)

Of course if we knew in what way Alice was an ass and bob was weak we could more clearly argue for a superior candidate. As it stands the original statement overall leaves the possibilities to be anything we choose them to be.

edited 15th Jan '11 9:29:44 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#15: Jan 15th 2011 at 9:35:16 PM

^ I'm not trying to justify anything. I think I actually like Bob more because Alice sounds like someone that might get on my nerves. I can deal with self satisfied people so long as they aren't like that all the time and really blatant about it. Recognizing your own weakness may not be easy, either, but I think more people manage to do it. Or even if they won't admit it will take steps to correct it. The opposite situation doesn't really let you do that as easily.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#16: Jan 15th 2011 at 9:41:43 PM

Fair enough on the rationalizing part.

I would consider Alice's problem a weakness in itself as it will eventually occur to her that it is a flaw and damaging to her character and social standing. The real question is once they recognize their issues how far do they have to go to address them? The more severe the various issues for either of them more overall effort they will individually need to put forth.

Lets say Alice is one of those really mean nasty people who deliberately manipulates others in her efforts to be an asshole and has done so for years and Bob just needs learn to speak up a little louder and stand up straight (you would be surprised how much these help and are probably the easiest forms of Perceived weakness to fix). In this case I would say Alice realizing what she has done and the steps needed to change the situation as well as repair damage she has caused would raise her above bob who just needs to speak up and stand up straighter.

edited 15th Jan '11 9:42:06 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#17: Jan 15th 2011 at 10:24:17 PM

Now, my questions are, who do you think underwent the most impressive transformation?

Bob, since becoming stronger is more difficult in my eyes than restraining oneself from disobeying social norms.

And who would you like more?
I don't like people, but I'd dislike Alice less. Alice is less likely to turn out to be a bully, and more likely to be telling the truth about themselves.

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#18: Jan 15th 2011 at 10:35:38 PM

Bob used to be kind of weak and whiny, and was basically pushed around and mocked by everybody. He's since toughened up and is a much more confident, independent person. It's basically impossible to offend Bob, and he's really in control of his life. He's also developed a disdain for people who are easily offended and people who can't stand up for themselves, as well as a rather self-satisfied attitude.

To be honest this was me as a child OP, I made that transformation and got to the point of where I mock weakness and can't be offended.

As to who has the better achievement? I think I agree with you. Alice would be easy to get along with, but at the risk of tooting my own horn, I find Bob to be more impressive, I'm proud of the way I changed during my youth.

Grain Only One Avatar from South Northwest Earth Since: Oct, 2009
Only One Avatar
#19: Jan 15th 2011 at 10:41:01 PM

Alice made the better transformation, because temperance is a virtue and pride is a sin.

edited 15th Jan '11 10:41:08 PM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!
BalloonFleet MASTER-DEBATER from Chicago, IL, USA Since: Jun, 2010
MASTER-DEBATER
#20: Jan 15th 2011 at 10:45:38 PM

Admitting your weak is not easy as you think either. This means admitting that you are flawed and you need to change who you are.

"being weak" =/= "being flawed and needing to change".

I think some of you folks are selling Bob's potential issues short and dismissing them as comparatively trivial because you do not like the outcome

given "weak and whiny" is a subjective term and he could've simply grew up around assholes,.....lol no.

As to who has the better achievement? I think I agree with you. Alice would be easy to get along with, but at the risk of tooting my own horn, I find Bob to be more impressive, I'm proud of the way I changed during my youth.

You're proud of becoming an asshole tongue

edited 15th Jan '11 10:49:34 PM by BalloonFleet

WHASSUP....... ....with lolis!
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#21: Jan 15th 2011 at 11:14:32 PM

"being weak" =/= "being flawed and needing to change: try reading the OP again.

Weakness is a flaw by the way. If you can prove weakness is a virtue I will change my opinion. Also it is pointed out that from the perspective of the people we are examining he saw it as a flaw and needed to change. Try again balloon.

Who watches the watchmen?
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#22: Jan 15th 2011 at 11:17:33 PM

I would prefer the Alice.

Why? This site has had some people who have claimed to be weak and then gotten strong and looking down others who still are weak =P And to be honest, I didn't like those people much.

Deathonabun Bunny from the bedroom Since: Jan, 2001
Bunny
#23: Jan 15th 2011 at 11:20:00 PM

But not all flaws need to be fixed. In fact, not all flaws can be fixed.

Weak (I'm going to assume physically unless someone says otherwise) is not too much of a disadvantage in today's world. Brains can get you rather far, as can a quick tongue and sharp wit.

Besides, if you do have a big problem with other people pushing you around, you can always make some friends who can help you with that.

On the subject of the actual question, I would actually find Alice's to be both more impressive and admirable. It took her the strength of will to realize how much of a humongous bitch she was, and the attitude to change it.

Bob, on the other hand, had a bit of a problem with bullies, and maybe took it a bit too far. Certainly it took him some willpower to make his change as well, but not nearly as much as Alice.

Of course, they're both rather impressive achievements. I certainly wouldn't mind some of Bob's self esteem.

edited 15th Jan '11 11:20:57 PM by Deathonabun

One of my few regrets about being born female is the inability to grow a handlebar mustache. -Landstander
BalloonFleet MASTER-DEBATER from Chicago, IL, USA Since: Jun, 2010
MASTER-DEBATER
#24: Jan 15th 2011 at 11:22:02 PM

Weakness is a flaw by the way. If you can prove weakness is a virtue I will change my opinion.[

....given you can take out enemies without using masive strength using stuff as simply as pissing off, harassing and wearing down your enemy over a period of time - among things like simply shooting someone or using some weapon, i'd say "strength" isnt as necessary as you think.

EDIT: also jumping your enemy as the guy above mentioned.

Also it is pointed out that from the perspective of the people we are examining he saw it as a flaw and needed to change. Try again balloon.

Yeah the premise is screwed from the beginning tongue

edited 15th Jan '11 11:23:30 PM by BalloonFleet

WHASSUP....... ....with lolis!
Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#25: Jan 16th 2011 at 1:07:42 AM

Admitting your weak is not easy as you think either.
In my experience, it's extremely easy. Sure, it's not the sort of thing I'd talk about in a job interview, but it's trivially easy to admit it to myself and people in just about any online forum. I can just as easily admit I'm lazy, selfish, cowardly, etc. It's no big deal. I'm just acknowledging facts, making descriptive statements.

This means admitting that you are flawed and you need to change who you are.
Acknowledging that one is weak does not entail making a negative value judgment about weakness, and it definitely does not entail accepting personal responsibility for making the change. I have observed countless rationalizations and justifications for not fixing one's flaws. This state of cognitive dissonance can be sustained indefinitely.

Addressing a weakness can be quite difficult depending on what your weakness is.
Yes, this is the hard part— taking action.

If you can prove weakness is a virtue I will change my opinion
What an appropriate choice of words. Among the aforementioned rationalizations I've observed, one of the most common involves the demonization of the strong and the portrayal of the weak as morally superior victims of an unjust world. Their inability to do certain things is, in their eyes, a result of them not being as corrupt/stupid/conformist as the masses.


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