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Minor cleanup needed: Unwinnable By Mistake

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Yamikuronue So Yeah Since: Aug, 2009
#1: Jan 15th 2011 at 12:25:15 PM

It looks like a lot of Unwinnable by Design entries persist in Unwinnable by Mistake; I, however, have never played most of the games on the list, so I can't be sure. Can these be clarified or moved?

Some examples of what I mean:

  • Quest For Glory 4 has few unwinnable moments that can't be averted by using common sense. It's possible, however (though not likely), to reach the end of the game without getting the weakness-exploiting attack necessary to defeat the final boss. If you didn't get it, then you might as well start over, since it's hours ago that you missed it.

  • Sierra game developer Al Lowe attempted to defy the Unwinnable trope in Leisure Suit Larry 5: There is never supposed to be an "unwinnable" point in the game no matter how much you mess up. (You can't die in this game, either - another interesting inversion!). Still, one thing slipped through... if you forget to write down the numbers of the various cab limousine companies you must call throughout the game at the single time they're shown in each location, then you're still up Unwinnable creek without a paddle.
    • Yami's note:It does mention being unintentional, but at the same time, it's clearly not a glitch... does that count?

  • Laura Bow 2: The Dagger of Amon Ra (which has a long entry not reproduced here but all of which looks misplaced)

  • Many of the physics-based puzzles in Zack and Wiki can be rendered unwinnable by performing steps incorrectly or in the wrong order — for example, dropping the platform part of a seesaw into place before the base is ready. Since the game is made up of short levels that can be retried as many times as you want, this isn't as evil as many of the other cases.
    • Yami's note: Isn't that part of the setup of puzzle games, that if you do it wrong you have to start over and do it right? That sounds intentional to me. This game I HAVE played, but it was briefly and a while ago.

edited 15th Jan '11 12:47:32 PM by Yamikuronue

BTW, I'm a chick.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#2: Jan 15th 2011 at 12:36:14 PM

The first example isn't unwinnable at all, is it? You just have to backtrack.

Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#3: Jan 15th 2011 at 1:10:33 PM

I've played the Quest For Glory series. If I recall correctly, in order to take out the Big Bad you need two things: the Ultimate Joke from the jester, and Erana's staff. You can backtrack at almost any point until the penultimate Ritual to release the Sealed Evil in a Can Eldritch Abomination (and Erana with it); that's the Point of No Return. You need the staff to take out the Big Bad, but you don't have enough time to actually use it unless you use the Ultimate Joke first.

So that's Unwinnable by Design, in that it's technically possible to miss out on these items before crossing the Point of No Return.

edited 15th Jan '11 1:12:22 PM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
Yamikuronue So Yeah Since: Aug, 2009
#4: Jan 15th 2011 at 2:04:03 PM

Another example:

  • In the Lucas Arts game Zak Mc Kracken and the Alien Mindbenders, you pick up a scrap of wallpaper near the beginning, which you eventually need in order to draw a map. Some time before this, you have to light a bonfire, and can, if you choose, use the wallpaper as kindling. The game doesn't try to dissuade you, and you can continue unhampered until you realise what you were supposed to hang on to the paper for...

Really, someone familiar with the genre just needs to go through and clean it up I think.

BTW, I'm a chick.
Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#5: Jan 15th 2011 at 2:56:00 PM

I don't believe Zack And Wiki should even be an example: Every level is a self-contained puzzle, and you can freely restart a level you're in at any time. Doing things in the wrong order (and either getting yourself killed, or making it impossible to get the treasure as a result) is part of the puzzle-solving process, and at no point does the entire game become Unwinnable.

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
muninn 'M not Crazy, just Raven from Somewhere, out there... Since: Jan, 2001
'M not Crazy, just Raven
#6: Jan 15th 2011 at 10:33:19 PM

There also seem to be some uses to mean "you will be forced to lose and load your save", where I think the examples should be "You may be forced to start the entire game over"

Example from page:

  • Final Fantasy II has enemies that are only vulnerable to magic. The Flans, one such type of enemy, are also practically impossible to flee from. Random battle with several Flans when you are out of MP = either wait a good half dozen (or more if your characters are well leveled) turns to die, or turn the game off.

Would there be consensus to go through and remove such examples?

Now Bloggier than ever before!
Errick 1TS4 FOX13 :y from Warshington Since: Jan, 2001
1TS4 FOX13 :y
#7: Jan 16th 2011 at 1:56:05 AM

Yeah, that page tends to get a lot of non-example bloat. I'm just too polite to remove them, I always worry I'll make someone mad.

CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#8: Jan 16th 2011 at 6:46:30 AM

As long as you leave an edit reason and make sure you're removing incorrect ones, you don't need to be too shy about it. In this case, there's clearly a lot of incorrect ones. "A couple of minutes inconvenience caused by reloading your last save" /= unwinnable.

EDIT: Removed Zach and Wiki, and also Final Fantasy IV, which was a ridiculous one - long story short, it said that if you forget to equip a character you get just before That One Boss, the game becomes "practically unwinnable" because of how easily she dies. I've played that game, and the battle is very difficult if you make the mistake - not impossible, by any means.

edited 16th Jan '11 6:53:33 AM by CaissasDeathAngel

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
DiamondWeapon Since: Jan, 2001
#9: Jan 16th 2011 at 7:07:39 AM

"Yami's note:It does mention being unintentional, but at the same time, it's clearly not a glitch... does that count? "

Designers make mistakes just like programmers. Unless there's reason to believe the guy was lying...

edited 16th Jan '11 7:07:57 AM by DiamondWeapon

helterskelter Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#10: Jan 16th 2011 at 8:50:06 AM

Glitches, I think, don't count. Design oversights do. They're not supposed to be unwinnable.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#11: Jan 16th 2011 at 9:10:32 AM

I think glitches can count. If there's a game breaking glitch that stops anyone from being able to beat the game then it's a something that should have been taken care of in beta testing. But it needs to be a wide spread glitch. Not just a glitch on your game. That's troper tales stuff.

edited 16th Jan '11 9:11:07 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
muninn 'M not Crazy, just Raven from Somewhere, out there... Since: Jan, 2001
'M not Crazy, just Raven
#12: Jan 16th 2011 at 9:26:12 AM

I think some glitches, at least, shouldn't qualify. For example, the Mario example that refers to Dummied Out levels that can't even be accessed without hacking the game certainly isn't Unwinnable by Mistake, because there's no way to encounter them in actualy, non-gamehacking gameplay.

Now Bloggier than ever before!
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#13: Jan 16th 2011 at 9:29:52 AM

Ok, hacking your game and then complaining it doesn't work right shouldn't count. I agree there. The game having a glitch that stops it from recognizing a flag, should.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#14: Jan 16th 2011 at 9:34:47 AM

Agree that glitches caused by the player doing something stupid like hacking the game do not count. It's rather hard to plan for those sort of things when testing.

Glitches that occur through normal gameplay and weren't picked up (like the famous Battle Toads one in co-op play) do count, as they clearly weren't intended to be there.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
helterskelter Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#15: Jan 16th 2011 at 10:32:17 AM

True, I should have made that distinction.

I do think, however, universal glitches are important. "This one time I" shouldn't ever count. Only something known to commonly happen. An oversight is the Legend of Zelda example where the player can jump across barely to an area they're not supposed to reach. A glitch is, say, the ability to walk up an invisible stair that shouldn't be there and not be able to get down. So long as it's always, or very commonly, there.

Yamikuronue So Yeah Since: Aug, 2009
#16: Jan 17th 2011 at 11:29:45 AM

What I meant by that is that the only thing separating the example I listed apart from the dozen similar examples on Unwinnable by Design is the fact that the authors supposedly didn't intend the game to be unwinnable. It's otherwise a classic adventure-game trap: Forgetting to do something important before leaving an area. It was designed so that you need that code to be able to complete the game.

edited 17th Jan '11 11:30:12 AM by Yamikuronue

BTW, I'm a chick.
tbarrie Since: Jan, 2001
#17: Jan 18th 2011 at 8:07:33 PM

What I meant by that is that the only thing separating the example I listed apart from the dozen similar examples on Unwinnable By Design is the fact that the authors supposedly didn't intend the game to be unwinnable. It's otherwise a classic adventure-game trap: Forgetting to do something important before leaving an area. It was designed so that you need that code to be able to complete the game.

The fact that designers sometimes include this sort of thing deliberately doesn't preclude the possibility of a designer doing it accidentally. Yes, this means sometimes tough judgement calls will be needed. The Leisure Suit Larry example seems pretty simple to me, though; Word of God is apparently that he was trying to make a game without unwinnable states, so this one would have to be by mistake. Even without Word of God, I'd argue that if this is really the one and only way to put this game in a unwinnable state, then that alone is pretty strong evidence that this was an oversight.

Conversely, the Laura Bow and Zack And Wiki examples pretty clearly don't belong on this page. (The Zack And Wiki one is particularly ridiculous, as you can't even put that game in an unwinnable state at all.)

The Quest For Glory one is less obvious, but the wording on the page certainly gives the impression that it belongs there. Stratadrake, you evidently disagree, but I'll confess I don't see anything in your synopsis that makes it obviously By Design. Can you elaborate?

There also seem to be some uses to mean "you will be forced to lose and load your save", where I think the examples should be "You may be forced to start the entire game over" Example from page: Final Fantasy II has enemies that are only vulnerable to magic. The Flans, one such type of enemy, are also practically impossible to flee from. Random battle with several Flans when you are out of MP = either wait a good half dozen (or more if your characters are well leveled) turns to die, or turn the game off.

I agree that this is not an example; a difficult fight that typically takes a long time is not unwinnability, and even if it were, claiming that this is By Mistake is a bit of a hard sell. (I strongly suspect the fact that the monsters sometimes kill you was a deliberate design decision.) But I think the principal you suggest goes way too far. By that logic, no game with a save function can ever become truly unwinnable, unless it's possible to render it as such via your first move of the game (or, I suppose, if some in-game action can unexpectedly ruin your saved games).

muninn 'M not Crazy, just Raven from Somewhere, out there... Since: Jan, 2001
'M not Crazy, just Raven
#18: Jan 19th 2011 at 4:58:54 AM

^Actually, it is possible to render a game with save functions unwinnable, if it is possible to save in an unwinnable state. For example, look at the following example from the page:

  • There's a point where the characters have to stop a missile launch, but to get the codes you have to help out some enemy soldiers. If you refuse to help them, then you cannot change the missile launch, and it's possible to save after refusing to help, which means you'd have to start the whole game over if you don't have a back-up file.

In the case, the game can be rendered unwinnable by refusing to help the soldiers, then saving over the save file, thus causing one's only save file to be in a state where the game cannot be completed. Another example would be the Twilight Princess example, where the entire problem stems from the fact that saving in the wrong spot results in a save file that will respawn the player on the wrong side of a Broken Bridge.

In comparison, the example I listed earlier is not an example because, while it may be possible to trap oneself in an unescapable battle with no way to win, there is no way to save at this point, and as such there is no danger of the player overwriting a save file with a save that is in an unwinnable state.

Now, if Final Fantasy II had a region where these only-vulnerable-to-magic-attacks enemies were the only encounter possible, encounters always happened exactly every 10 steps, and there was a save point more than 10 steps into the encounter zone, it would be possible to create a save file where one would be forced to have such an encounter without any MP (or MP-recovering items), thus creating an unwinnable situation. However, since this is not the case, it isn't an example.

Now Bloggier than ever before!
korax1214 Since: Jul, 2009
#19: Jan 19th 2011 at 12:33:24 PM

One "example" which persistently gets added to Unwinnable by Mistake is the Pokémon one about exchanging a Finneon for a Magikarp. According to the discussion archives, this is actually Unwinnable by Design — I'm told (I haven't actually seen the anime nor played any of the games, I was told this by someone who presumably has done these things) that it's a reference to a Running Gag in the anime. Or something like that.

Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#20: Jan 19th 2011 at 1:19:50 PM

From what I can see, the Finneon Pokemon example is so incredibly esoteric that I'm not sure it should even qualify as Unwinnable by Design. Yes, being able to trade off a pokemon whose HM skill is the only way to leave an area is technically a design oversight, but thematically, it doesn't fit — it's not something you can expect to encounter during normal play.

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
Ishntknew Since: Apr, 2009
#21: Jan 19th 2011 at 1:54:39 PM

Can we get some verification on this other than "the archived discussion said it was on purpose"? Unless the exact situation described here happened in the anime, I highly doubt that Pokemon, a game series which only grants you one save file per game, and in which you spend a ton of time and energy building up a team that you're supposed grow attached to, intentionally included an unwinnable situation.

Also, [up], anything that renders your save file useless (or, in the absence of a save file, forces you to start the game over) is an Unwinnable situation. Even if you have to go out of your way to do it.

Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#22: Jan 19th 2011 at 5:36:30 PM

Yes, but that's the Unwinnable supertrope, which was so darn large it had to be split into two cases.

IMHO...

  • I do not like the name Unwinnable by Design ... but I do understand that it's game design where unwinnable situations can develop without the player knowing it (e.g. not requiring the Kleptomaniac Hero to pick up the Chekhov's Gun before proceeding to a puzzle/situation that requires it) and end with the player unable to complete the game as a whole, forced to restart from a previous save point and/or the entire game.
  • Unwinnable by Mistake strikes me as cases where a game is designed to generally avoid the above unwinnable situations — puzzle situations are generally nonlethal and if you don't have what it takes to proceed forward you can backtrack to pick it up — but obscure combinations of actions (or Sequence Breaking) can still result in becoming "stuck" in a place and unable to complete the game as a whole. The exact combination of actions varies but is generally something that the average player isn't going to even know exists, much less encounter.

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
Yamikuronue So Yeah Since: Aug, 2009
#23: Jan 22nd 2011 at 4:28:48 PM

That's a good point though. I mean, there's a major difference between:

"You didn't do X and now your game is unwinnable" (Unwinnable by Design)

"A glitch made you get stuck and have to restart your save" (Unwinnable by Mistake)

and

"You can, if you so choose, travel to an island, strip your character naked, sell all your items, and break your boat, making you physically incapable of ever leaving the island".

That's just.... being deliberately obtuse and TRYING to break the game.

BTW, I'm a chick.
Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#24: Jan 22nd 2011 at 11:36:33 PM

Exactly. If you can make the game unwinnable by a deliberate combination of actions that no sane player would likely ever come within a mile of thinking about a friend who knows somebody that can execute it (which conveniently explains how the heck it got past the dev's QA team), that's not Unwinnable by Design.

edited 22nd Jan '11 11:37:19 PM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#25: Jan 23rd 2011 at 12:03:51 AM

The third doesn't seem to be either Unwinnable by Design or Unwinnable by Mistake, but Unwinnible By The Player Forcing It To Be Unwinnible By Doing Crazy Stupid Bullshit And Or Hacking The Game.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Total posts: 33
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