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"Dude, grow up" vs. "Dude, not funny."

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drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#1: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:26:33 PM

This came up in Yackfest, and I'd like to have a serious conversation about it.

We've discussed similar things in the "Man Up" thread; about how people oftentimes have too thin a skin with regards to the opinions of others.

So I present the question: is it the job of the giver to regulate his behavior vis-a-vis others' sensitivities? Or is it the job of the receiver to learn how to laugh it off?

My opinion: Learn to laugh it off, always. You cannot control what others do, but you can learn to control your reaction to it.

NOTE: I formally make this request to the mods: any post having to do with Scrye (good, bad or indifferent), please thump it as off-topic. Want to discuss his ban? "Google Banning" is doing a good job of that already.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#2: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:29:48 PM

I don't think anything gives me a Dude, Not Funny! reaction, but I would consider it best to at least hold back a little for the sake of politeness. If it's just one or two people... well, you can't please everyone. But ignoring any offense you may cause just seems rather dickish to me, no matter how much you think the person is overreacting.

edited 14th Jan '11 8:30:09 PM by Arha

snailbait bitchy queen from psych ward Since: Jul, 2010
bitchy queen
#3: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:30:11 PM

I think the giver should be completely aware of the consequences. If they tell an extremely offensive joke about race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. they shouldn't be offended that people are offended.

"Without a fairy, you're not even a real man!" ~ Mido from Ocarina of Time
Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest Since: Apr, 2009
#4: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:32:52 PM

Frankly, I'm not convinced that anyone who tells people to "laugh things off" or "grow thicker skin" is saying these things for my own benefit, but so that they don't have to worry about things like "tact" and "self-moderation".

edited 14th Jan '11 8:33:22 PM by Wicked223

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#5: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:32:59 PM

[up][up]/[up][up][up] But again I say; you cannot control what other people do. Learning to laugh off the shit in this world is an important (and underrated) life skill.

edited 14th Jan '11 8:33:21 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#6: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:35:42 PM

In some cases, it's unreasonable to expect people to 'laugh things off'. If someone makes an attack on you, a belief you hold very dear, or something that recently happened to you and does it in a suitably offensive way, I think you have every right to be offended.

Be not afraid...
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#7: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:36:47 PM

^^ Yes, it is. Personally, I think that people do overreact. But since you can't control their response, you can at least limit yourself slightly by trying to refrain being overly tasteless where it isn't wanted. I can and do tell dead baby jokes to my friends, but if I have a different audience that is less accepting it's not my business to tell them that they are wrong for getting offended.

edited 14th Jan '11 8:36:59 PM by Arha

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#8: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:39:13 PM

@Loni: Perhaps by some peoples' yardstick that would be true. But in dismissing someone who is being a dick, you make them look even more like what they are, while you rise above it.

By reacting, you give them power. You give them what they wanted.

Now, I'm not saying that this is always possible on a practical level. Sure, I've thrown more than one punch in response to insults. But I consider myself having been in the wrong for doing so, regardless of the provocation or how much the person targeted "deserved" to get a fist in the teeth.

I'm saying its the ideal to which we should aspire, and too many people think its the world's job to cater to their sensibilities.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Schitzo HIGH IMPACT SEXUAL VIOLENCE from Akumajou Dracula Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: LA Woman, you're my woman
HIGH IMPACT SEXUAL VIOLENCE
#9: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:39:21 PM

I'll agree with "You have freedom of speech. But so does everyone else."

Just as much as you can't control what people say, you can't control how people will react to you.

Take what you dish out.

ALL CREATURE WILL DIE AND ALL THE THINGS WILL BE BROKEN. THAT'S THE LAW OF SAMURAI.
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#10: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:40:19 PM

@Schitzo: agreed. Which brings me to the second half of my point; if you can't take the consequences, don't engage in the action.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#11: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:42:51 PM

Yeah, but the only two possible responses aren't "Get angry and insult them back/hit them back" and "Laugh it off". You could just calmly say "I find that offensive and I will not be responding further to it."

If, say, my brother were to commit suicide and then somebody proceeded to make a joke about it... am I supposed to 'laugh it off'?

edited 14th Jan '11 8:45:27 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#12: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:45:17 PM

If you punch somebody, it shouldn't be a shocker if they hit back. Likewise, if you go out of your way to offend somebody, it shouldn't come as a great surprise if they respond with hostility.

Maybe some people deserve to be punched, and some people deserve to be insulted, but I don't think it's unreasonable to characterise somebody who attacks other people without provocation, verbally or physically, as an aggressor, and therefore the one most responsible for whatever ensues.

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Schitzo HIGH IMPACT SEXUAL VIOLENCE from Akumajou Dracula Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: LA Woman, you're my woman
HIGH IMPACT SEXUAL VIOLENCE
#13: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:45:22 PM

and well, Drunk: That goes for both Dude, Grow Up and Dude, Not Funny. Neither absolute will do us any good.

ALL CREATURE WILL DIE AND ALL THE THINGS WILL BE BROKEN. THAT'S THE LAW OF SAMURAI.
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#14: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:48:26 PM

When it comes to words, the best thing you can do is shrug and walk on if someone offends you. Anything else is feeding the troll. Starve the fucker, that's what I say.

Oh, and physical attacks are in a whole different arena. Those hurt. There's a vast gulf of difference between getting insulted and getting the crap kicked out of you.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#15: Jan 14th 2011 at 8:52:29 PM

No, but getting offended at someone's speech does not mean you need to launch a physical attack. When you make your joke, they respond in kind by telling you they don't approve.

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#16: Jan 14th 2011 at 9:01:16 PM

I can say from experience that there are some remarks that have just gotten to me, and I could ignore them outwardly, but they still hurt. Not being hurt is often easier said than done, and that goes for some people more than others, and can be for a variety of reasons (not just oversensitivity).

And as for trolls going away, that doesn't always apply. I recall one guy who we used to make fun of a lot back at school - and we all made fun of one another, so it wasn't really meant as a nasty thing - but he didn't make a scene of it, and he didn't talk back or anything. He just took it, and we thought he wasn't bothered by it, right up until he snapped and attempted to beat this one kid over the head with a chair (and he was a big guy, so this was no laughing matter).

So yeah. "Ignore them and they'll go away" makes certain assumptions about the troll's motivations, and isn't always correct.

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Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#17: Jan 14th 2011 at 9:03:27 PM

I'm incapable of the "Dude Not Funny" response, I like to believe.

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#18: Jan 14th 2011 at 9:07:02 PM

@Bobby: sure, comments hurt. But why? its just the words of some stranger. And as to the guy who "just snapped"...maybe I'd sympathize and maybe I wouldn't, but the fact remains it shouldn't have mattered to him so much.

As I said in an earlier (and now locked) thread; I'm much happier now that I can laugh at myself a little, and not worry so much about what others think of me.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#19: Jan 14th 2011 at 9:10:12 PM

It shouldn't have mattered to him so much, but it did. I think you have the right to say anything you please, but it would be respectful not to do so if you know you're going to be causing offense unless you have actual reason to do so. I'm not sure if I really manage to do so, personally, but I try to match the taste level of the community I'm in.

Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest Since: Apr, 2009
#20: Jan 14th 2011 at 9:10:23 PM

I tried the "not caring what others think of me" thing, and all it did was make me even more miserable than I already was.

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
Nika-senpai The Golden Girl from Mitakihara Since: Nov, 2009
The Golden Girl
#21: Jan 14th 2011 at 9:10:58 PM

Having the ability to speak and write, in my opinion, always comes with a sort of personal responsibility.

Typically, I will tailor my behaviour to the audience. I simply don't want to risk offending a stranger because apologizing, or trying to convince them that they're wrong for being offended, is just arduous and unpleasant and it's really not that hard to make sure I don't say offensive things.

I know that people are different etc. but on a general scale, it's really not that hard to figure out what offends people. I think it's safer to assume that a majority of people would be offended by racial slurs, dead baby jokes, sexist jokes, racist jokes, certain swear words unless replaced by an acceptable euphemism, explicit sexual humour, controversial opinions on sensitive issues that are presented extremely bluntly, etc. If I don't know otherwise, it's just better to keep my mouth shut.

Or, at the very least, apologize and explain myself. "I'm sorry that what I said offended you. This is why I said it and I hope you understand."

Of course, on forums, I view things a bit differently. Forums are kind of there to share my opinion in the first place. But there's a difference between that and being forcibly callous or offensive.

Shine
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#22: Jan 14th 2011 at 9:11:31 PM

Words have meanings, and the intent behind them can itself be hurtful. I mean, I was bullied myself when I was younger; most of the verbal stuff that got to me was as hurtful as it was because the very fact that somebody would be so hostile towards me was upsetting.

I mean, OK, sure, you learn to deal with these kinds of things. And some people learn faster than others; good for them. But I don't think it's really reasonable to expect everybody to just put up with every insult or attempted provocation.

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mikefrombrooklyn Since: Dec, 1969
#23: Jan 14th 2011 at 9:12:18 PM

I think there has to be a certain level of responsibility on both sides. I try to not be offensive if I can avoid it under the assumption that my audience won't go out of their way to be offended by what I say.

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#24: Jan 14th 2011 at 9:14:32 PM

I am just saying that sloughing off humanity's dickery is the ideal that should be aspired to. We're all not going to reach it, certainly; I have my buttons, same as every human ever born.

What I'm saying is that people have stopped even trying to tolerate and think that they somehow have a "right" to be offended. No, you don't. If you let someone under your skin, you've already lost. End of story.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest Since: Apr, 2009
#25: Jan 14th 2011 at 9:18:00 PM

If you let someone under your skin, you've already lost. End of story.

That seems like a good idea in theory, but it doesn't match very well with reality.

The fact is, people's buttons are not consciously chosen by them, they're hard-coded into out personalities. We don't choose what we get offended by any more than we choose the pitch of our voice.

Expecting everyone you meet to simply shrug off every joke you make is like expecting a rock not to fall when you drop it.

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!

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