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Your thoughts on "the american dream" (Me=european=???)

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melloncollie Since: Feb, 2012
#26: Jan 13th 2011 at 10:53:25 AM

"Deserving"ness: Yeah, I guess you could look at it that way.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#27: Jan 13th 2011 at 11:32:42 AM

Yes, that too. It's a combination of a type of meritocracy, combined with an individualistic freedom from outside interference (so meritocracy isn't interpreted here as rising up a well organized hierarchy- thats anathema to many Americans). It's more like competing in sports- you test yourself, look within, find your hidden sources of personal strength, and rise above what you thought you could do.

To more conservative Americans, it is very much about people getting what they deserve, with the unspoken assumption that not everyone deserves to be successful.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#28: Jan 13th 2011 at 3:31:22 PM

rising up a well organized hierarchy- thats anathema to many Americans

Huh?

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#29: Jan 13th 2011 at 4:11:19 PM

Most Americans dislike hierarchies. After all, that means someone's higher than they are. It's part of the reason why politicians and CEO's are so unpopular.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#30: Jan 13th 2011 at 4:19:55 PM

The idea that someone has a right to tell you what to do simply because of the position they hold.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#31: Jan 13th 2011 at 4:29:41 PM

That's amusingly liberal (although not exactly in the sense that the word is used as a pejorative in America, obviously). Anarchic, even.

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DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#32: Jan 13th 2011 at 4:31:09 PM

It's individualistically meritocratic.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#33: Jan 13th 2011 at 4:44:59 PM

Sounds pretty liberal to me

But nah, I can see that. The similarity just amused me.

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RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#34: Jan 13th 2011 at 5:18:30 PM

... But I like having someone who is demonstrably worthier than me order me around. I mean being a stepping stone to an awesome leader can be its own reward. And leading and ordering people who are more competent than you seems abhorrent to me. I couldn't live with myself if cast into such a position.

And social optimizations demands such things as hierarchy and specialization: it gives the best returns!

...Why do I sound all Japanese all of a sudden? Wait a minute...

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#35: Jan 13th 2011 at 5:27:23 PM

Most people have had a bad experience with some fuckwit who was more interested in throwing his weight around as "the boss" than actually getting shit done.

Fight smart, not fair.
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#36: Jan 13th 2011 at 5:29:26 PM

Well, yes, but

  • Is it the norm.
  • Do they think they would do any better.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#37: Jan 13th 2011 at 5:38:10 PM

Doesn't mean it's not irritating.

Fight smart, not fair.
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#39: Jan 13th 2011 at 6:03:01 PM

I didn't say it was a good thing, or even my personal view.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#40: Jan 13th 2011 at 6:13:23 PM

I'm not critcizing you, I am striving to understand this freaking concept

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#41: Jan 13th 2011 at 7:12:16 PM

I'm more inclined to believe that it's that "everyone thinks they're special" concept more than anything else.

Fight smart, not fair.
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#42: Jan 13th 2011 at 7:14:19 PM

Mister Rogers?

Wazzat even mean, Special? The Chosen One?

edited 13th Jan '11 7:15:02 PM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#43: Jan 13th 2011 at 7:27:31 PM

Yeah, "we're unique", "we're a shining beacon of civilization", "we're not just a different country, we're special" type of thing.

Fight smart, not fair.
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#44: Jan 13th 2011 at 7:33:41 PM

You'll find a billion different opinions on the "American Dream" OP. The simplest interpretation of it with the least political slant is that it constitutes having nothing or very little, and working hard being enough to eventually become prosperous, several measures above where you started.

I think in it's own way it's still quite attainable, you won't be a millionaire, but there are many ways to go from being poor to middle to upper middle class in the US.

American Exceptionalism, however, comes from the idea that we're unique compared to our western european forefathers because we came from a revolution and have a massive fixation on certain values in our culture, such as freedom of speech/religion, and the right to bear arms, as well as a massive distrust of the government and self-reliance/independence. We were in a good position to get where we did, because we were colonies on an unsettled continent(other than the Indians, who had a hard time fighting us because we had guns).

This means we had an easy time skyrocketing to where we are by settling North America, from one coast to the other.

Ukonkivi Over 10,000 dead.:< Since: Aug, 2009
Over 10,000 dead.:<
#45: Jan 13th 2011 at 9:45:04 PM

Do you think these principles are present in modern american society?
The general idea is. But the idea and ways to implement it especially, has been watered down by political corruption. The idea is there, but the implementation has been pretty well hijacked. America is no longer "the land of opportunity", aside from a bit cheaper land in some areas to the typical European country. People in this country do not have equal opportunity and are not born equal in our current system. Education is terrible, and people are majorly born into wealth and power. Odds are stacked against the proletariat who "dream the American dream", as the rich are struggling and doing a very good job of keeping prosperity from the hard working.

Do you "believe" in the american dream?
Yes, very much so. That is why I am so alienated by the current United States American political climate.

Do you often think about the american dream? Does it matter to you?
Well, not so much by the name. But I often dream of prosperity, as a member of the proletariat.

Do you think it's important in your personal life?
The concept? A bit, I think everyone wants to pursue happiness. And have economic well being, the term itself, is not engrained with my identity at all. I see myself as a world citizen who holds the "dream of the proletariat". I don't really consider myself a countryman. So I'm a bit unusual in that aspect in that I don't have American pride or pride in any country, or an identity with any country.

socialism = government handouts
Nah, that's a falsity advocated by the fearmongering. Socialism is equal opportunity. Though I don't want to turn this thread into a political debate.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
UnabashedFornicator Since: Oct, 2010
#46: Jan 13th 2011 at 11:26:51 PM

At least one interpretation of the American Dream was codified by James T. Adams in the 1930's. His definition was relatively Capitalistic, and even included the phrase "opportunity according to ability and achievement." A crucial aspect to his definition was the whole "better tomorrow" schtick. In essence, this element of the dream was that your children would grow up/become wealthier than you. As you might guess, this definition was strongly related to the time period, and had much to do with the peak years of immigration being in the early 1900s.

Public figures have invoked the term "American dream" in countless and relatively broad circumstances. In general they tend to leave its meaning and interpretation nebulous, probably because to define it would remove some of its evocative power.

edited 13th Jan '11 11:39:46 PM by UnabashedFornicator

EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#47: Jan 13th 2011 at 11:27:46 PM

I've mostly heard the term used to mean home ownership. Which certainly makes it sound empty, especially now...

edited 13th Jan '11 11:28:05 PM by EnglishIvy

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#48: Jan 13th 2011 at 11:49:46 PM

@OP: As an American who actually enjoys living in his country (gasp!) I'll toss my two pennies in the pot...

A lot of noise has been made about how the Dream is "not possible anymore" due to big business, big government etc. With respect to those people, I do not buy it. I've watched plenty of people create themselves out of nothing, which in many places is flat impossible.

Here its merely difficult, and requires two things; a lot of work, and tolerance for setbacks.

Sure, the dream has taken a real beating in the last few years; the housing crunch made home ownership more of a pain than a boon (personal experience here), and the demise of american manufacturing pretty much put a bullet between the eyes of the concept of "Joe Lunchpail" (again, went through this myself).

But hard work is always rewarded, as long as it comes with a measure of patience and a side order of intelligence.

OP, if you want to discuss this further, my PM box is open. Thank you, by the way, for wanting to know and going to the source.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Ukonkivi Over 10,000 dead.:< Since: Aug, 2009
Over 10,000 dead.:<
#49: Jan 14th 2011 at 12:15:58 AM

Here its merely difficult, and requires two things; a lot of work, and tolerance for setbacks.
And a lot of luck.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#50: Jan 14th 2011 at 1:54:42 AM

[up]Yeah, don't forget the luck.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?

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