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TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#26: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:13:36 AM

Tsukubus, are you suggesting that physical violence is needed in this day and age?

Because that's kind of the message I'm getting from you.

edited 11th Jan '11 8:13:49 AM by TheyCallMeTomu

TheGloomer Since: Sep, 2010
#27: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:14:09 AM

It might have been Mc Guinness who said that when he was in the IRA. I can't remember.

Tsukubus I Care Not... from [REDACTED] Since: Aug, 2010
I Care Not...
#28: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:16:19 AM

Saying ____ is needed and etc. is all some kind of lame value judgment, which I'll shy away from.

I am perfectly served in my life by peacefulness and political disengagement and all of that, but if your goal in life was to say, maximize the level of collective prosperity, utility, or liberty in society, then "violence" would really be the only logical course of action.

edited 11th Jan '11 8:16:49 AM by Tsukubus

"I didn't steal it; I'm borrowing it until I die."
Michael So that's what this does Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
So that's what this does
#29: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:18:44 AM

It was Sinn Fein's Danny Morrison who first said:

"Who here really believes we can win the war through the ballot box? But will anyone here object if, with a ballot paper in this hand and an Armalite in the other, we take power in Ireland?"

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#30: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:21:03 AM

Political parties should not pretend to be revolutionaries.

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#31: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:21:29 AM

[up][up][up] No, it would be a highly illogical course of action. How do you figure that your armed rebellion against the government would make anything better?

edited 11th Jan '11 8:22:11 AM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
TheGloomer Since: Sep, 2010
#32: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:22:24 AM

Thank you very much. I knew I had the quotation confused, and it's original meaning too, probably.

OscarWildecat Bite Me! from The Interwebz Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Bite Me!
#33: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:23:07 AM

Citation: Democratic Leadership Council's Website.

Can you provide citations that the Tea Party uses firearm/second amendment rhetoric in a "Using it as a political tool to get what you want because you want to manipulate the electorate" sense?

Please spay/neuter your pets. Also, defang your copperheads.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#34: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:23:52 AM

The argument is that the rhetoric shouldn't focus on physical violence.

Ah, my mistake. It didn't click for me.

Fight smart, not fair.
Michael So that's what this does Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
So that's what this does
#35: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:23:58 AM

Incidentally, the Armalite and Ballot paper rhetoric was not arguing that violence should be used as a supplement to democracy, but rather that democracy should be used as a supplement to violence. Whether or not the IRA continued to support violence was not up for debate at the time.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#36: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:24:56 AM

No, because Sarah Palin took down her tweet and picture after the recent shooting because she was paranoid it'd be politically damning :P

I'll see if I can't find a link.

http://veracitystew.com/2011/01/08/sarah-palin-takes-down-controversial-crosshairs-map-targeting-rep-giffords-pic/

Ultimately, I get that the idea is that they're basically the same thing. The difference is, the Democrats used dart board bullseyes, whereas Palin (The Tea Party darlin') used crosshairs-which, I'm sure you'll concede, is more directly related to guns. You could make the argument that it's just a natural evolution of the discourse, which I think is BS, but I'll still grant that. We want there to be ways of marking "Important Districts" sure, but we don't want it to be framed in a violent fashion.

edited 11th Jan '11 8:26:50 AM by TheyCallMeTomu

rjung He's just some guy, you know? from Fifth and Main (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
He's just some guy, you know?
#37: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:25:08 AM

I'm surprised (no, not really) that Major Tom needs to be reminded that one difference between this incident and the Ft. Hood shooting is that Ft. Hood wasn't preceded by high-profile national candidates urging their supporters to take action using gun-themed rhetoric ("Don't retreat, reload!", voting or Harry Reid might justify "using Second Amendment remedies," etc.).

Though I find it amusing that Major Tom is apparently channeling Michael Moore.

—R.J.

edited 11th Jan '11 8:29:19 AM by rjung

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#38: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:26:52 AM

It doesnt help that large segments of the Right seem to be borderline fetishistic about their guns. That is just fucking disturbing.

Tsukubus I Care Not... from [REDACTED] Since: Aug, 2010
I Care Not...
#39: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:31:02 AM

Political parties can quickly become hotbeds of revolutionary fervor when the elite classes align their interests entirely with one party, use a mixture of cultural hegemony (media control, control of the education establishment. etc) and identity politics (changing demographics of USA makes this especially easy) to gain a permanent majority, the minority party becomes a culturally distinct block highly protective of their heritage, and standards of living decrease.

This is kind of how Singapore worked out to be, except governance tends to be somewhat competent and standards of living are good so the structure doesn't fall apart. Of course, in America, the elites aren't very good at governance or economics, so... yeah.

edited 11th Jan '11 8:32:02 AM by Tsukubus

"I didn't steal it; I'm borrowing it until I die."
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:31:27 AM

I think that, individually, none of the pieces are really that big of an issue. Crosshairs in place of Bullseyes? Totally understandable. "Don't Retreat Reload" sure, that's an inspiration of "Keep on fighting." I'd certainly concede that when you don't take all of the imagery together, when it's only piece by piece, it's not a big deal.

But you see Tea Party goers at rallies with guns, you see every third Tea Party candidate essentially encouraging more and more violent rhetoric-if not outright acting violently-and the trend isn't exactly reversing itself (Though, it may do so now, if the Tea Party and friends want to divorce themselves from the shooting-if that happens, then my work here is done and I have no further complaints).

Here, something that undercuts my point but that I agree with: [1]

edited 11th Jan '11 8:37:42 AM by TheyCallMeTomu

OOZE Don't feed the plants! from Transsexual,Transylvania Since: Dec, 1969
Don't feed the plants!
#41: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:40:14 AM

The reason teapartiers have and encourage the use of guns is not because the government as it is now needs to be violently and physically revolted against, but because the government has gotten to the point where it COULD get to that level at any time. And now that the second amendment has been rendered largely irrelevant, we need to make sure that we keep our guns to create a strong negative incentive for the government to get that bad.

"That bad" is VERY bad, and ideally we would prevent that politically. "That bad" would be the government setting up concentration camps, or the government postponing a federal election, or the government not retaliating in any way to a nuclear strike.

I'm feeling strangely happy now, contented and serene. Oh don't you see, finally I'll be, somewhere that's green...
EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#42: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:44:40 AM

Don't forget all the Liberal Hunting Permits on sale at rallies and gun shows.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:45:04 AM

Wait, seriously? They have those?

I'm tired of arguing over what the Tea Party and Conservatives did. I just want it to stop. Let's stop the violent rhetoric, let's stop the implicit calls to violence, let's stop this crap.

We should all be horrified at the idea of people using physical violence like this. This is not a revolution, this is madness. And we should act in a way that is consistent with that ability to be horrified.

edited 11th Jan '11 8:46:47 AM by TheyCallMeTomu

EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#45: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:48:22 AM

Hopefully they'll stop that, then.

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#46: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:49:07 AM

^^^ Its nice to dream, isnt it? In the meantime, lets watch people fantasize about being revolutionaries, standing against the flowing tide of the evil progressives who wants to take way their way of life.

edited 11th Jan '11 8:49:18 AM by SilentStranger

OscarWildecat Bite Me! from The Interwebz Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Bite Me!
#47: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:49:34 AM

[up][up]They also make Kill Bush T-Shirts. [down]Yes. This.

edited 11th Jan '11 8:53:14 AM by OscarWildecat

Please spay/neuter your pets. Also, defang your copperheads.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#48: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:50:05 AM

Then let's stop the Kill Bush T-shirts.

If anyone involved in the Kill Bush T-Shirt business runs for office, I'll make sure to marginalize them, in the same way I would hope that anyone involved in "Liberal Hunting Season Pass Tickets" is marginalized. How about that?

edited 11th Jan '11 8:51:17 AM by TheyCallMeTomu

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#49: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:50:56 AM

@OOZE: No it couldn't. All of those seem incredibly unlikely. To be honest, I question the need for the Second Amendment at all in most places. But that's off-topic.

Yeah, the right wing is way more violent than the left. And less credible. It's why I never stand with the Republicans, despite sharing a lot of economic views with them.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
OscarWildecat Bite Me! from The Interwebz Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Bite Me!
#50: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:55:20 AM

@TOMU: I can live with that.

Please spay/neuter your pets. Also, defang your copperheads.

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