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USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#101: Sep 13th 2011 at 3:47:23 PM

Mass murder is only wrong because society makes it wrong. I mean, I think it's wrong. But that's just an opinion.

What objectively makes mass murder wrong? The concept of "killing = wrong" is artificial, remember. It's only wrong because we say so. I think it should stay that way, but...

I am now known as Flyboy.
brony99 Since: Sep, 2011
#102: Sep 13th 2011 at 4:36:57 PM

people like Hitler and most serial killers do it despite KNOWING it's wrong. whatever personal justification they have is does not matter.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#103: Sep 13th 2011 at 4:41:09 PM

~shrug~

If you say so. I think he completely believed what he was doing was right. Morality is subjective like that.

I am now known as Flyboy.
brony99 Since: Sep, 2011
#104: Sep 13th 2011 at 4:48:01 PM

he didn't believe he was right. how do I know this? he didn't match his own description of the perfect human being and he purposefully manufactured his good publicity.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#105: Sep 13th 2011 at 4:51:21 PM

That just makes him delusional and/or a Straw Hypocrite...

I am now known as Flyboy.
AlirozTheConfused Bibliophile. from Daz Huat! Since: May, 2010
Bibliophile.
#106: Sep 13th 2011 at 4:54:05 PM

But it was Joseph Goebbels who ran Hitler's propaganda machine, manufactured Hiter's publicity, enshrined the image of the Aryan race as white, blond-haired, and blue-eyed because that image would include most of the germans.

edited 13th Sep '11 4:55:28 PM by AlirozTheConfused

Never be without a Hat! Hot means heat. I don't care if your usage dates to 1300, it's my word, not yours. My Pm box is open.
brony99 Since: Sep, 2011
#107: Sep 13th 2011 at 4:56:25 PM

it means he did all that he did just because he hated Jewish people. if he could cross realities and eat planets, he'd be a Real Life Unicron!

edited 13th Sep '11 4:58:21 PM by brony99

brony99 Since: Sep, 2011
#108: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:00:35 PM

[up][up] that just makes Hitler all the more soulless if someone else gave him a reason to shout out blindly.

AlirozTheConfused Bibliophile. from Daz Huat! Since: May, 2010
Bibliophile.
#109: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:03:16 PM

Also, Goebbels pretty much started the Antisemitism movement in Germany, which Hitler later joined and took over. Additionally, Goebbels had a big hand in the starting of the Final Solution.

Never be without a Hat! Hot means heat. I don't care if your usage dates to 1300, it's my word, not yours. My Pm box is open.
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#110: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:06:42 PM

No need for double-posting. The little pencil on the top part of your post is the edit button.

Believe it or not, history tells us that, as far as we know, Hitler was definitely drinking his own Kool-Aid...

I am now known as Flyboy.
brony99 Since: Sep, 2011
#111: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:06:45 PM

[up] all still in favor of my argument.

brony99 Since: Sep, 2011
#112: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:08:57 PM

[up][up] drinking doesn't make you evil. beer is basically a truth serum that makes you say and do things you're usually smart enough not to but are still your true feelings.

edited 13th Sep '11 5:09:58 PM by brony99

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#113: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:10:38 PM

..."Drinking your own Kool-Aid" is a turn of phrase meaning that, whatever deranged ideas you're espousing ("deranged" being by society's standards), you wholly and complete believe in them.

It comes from the Waco cults, if I'm not mistaken...

I am now known as Flyboy.
brony99 Since: Sep, 2011
#114: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:13:33 PM

if he didn't come up with his ideas himself, he doesn't believe them and committed genocide For the Evulz or Fantastic Racism. do I WANT to believe a Complete Monster exists in Real Life? no. but that just isn't the case and I accept that.

edited 13th Sep '11 5:15:07 PM by brony99

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#115: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:15:58 PM

...that doesn't make sense. No ideal exists in a vacuum. All of them are based on things that come before, unless you're from the dawn of time.

You don't need to create an ideal to believe in it. And I'm not contesting that he committed genocide. I'm contesting the idea that he didn't believe it was right.

I am now known as Flyboy.
brony99 Since: Sep, 2011
#116: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:19:12 PM

he knew he and the other Nazis were the only ones who thought they were right. he knew he was wrong by both society and Warfare standards. and the idea that morality is a artificial thing is just Too Dumb to Live.

edited 13th Sep '11 5:20:49 PM by brony99

BooleanEarth And a happy new year. from Banned Land Since: Jul, 2011
And a happy new year.
#117: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:19:17 PM

[up][up][up][up]Jonestown, not Waco. The Waco cult was the one that got burned to death by police and/or government agents. Jonestown was the one where the cult head made people drink the poisoned Kool Aid.

And just for the record I'd like to state that I disagree with your point of morality being wholly subjective, for both religious and non-religious reasons. Complete Monsters do exist in real life; some things are just wrong, and some people still do them. Thankfully they aren't as plentiful as they are in fiction. Absolute good and absolute evil are both so significant in life in part because they are both so rare.

edited 13th Sep '11 5:19:49 PM by BooleanEarth

"In the land of the insecure, the one-balled man is king." - Haven
BooleanEarth And a happy new year. from Banned Land Since: Jul, 2011
And a happy new year.
#119: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:26:24 PM

That said, I think Adolf Hitler had his own justifications for what he did in his own mind that he believed in thoroughly. Whether those were the same as the Nazi propaganda he spouted is a matter of history, and Mr. Hitler is the only one who could really answer that.

That doesn't mean he wasn't wrong, but the idea that all evil people in Real Life are Supervillains who do things For the Evulz is dangerously naive.

edited 13th Sep '11 5:27:43 PM by BooleanEarth

"In the land of the insecure, the one-balled man is king." - Haven
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#120: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:41:37 PM

If you believe in an objective standard of morality then indeed, someone can believe that they are right and still be wrong. What makes something objectively wrong? Is it simply consensus?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
BooleanEarth And a happy new year. from Banned Land Since: Jul, 2011
And a happy new year.
#121: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:54:07 PM

[up]Objectively wrong actions are those that increase the net amount of suffering in the universe. Suffering, while a rather nebulous concept to deal with practically, is a legitimate emergent phenomenon of the way in which the universe is constructed and has a strict definition (although I would be very hard-pressed to phrase it correctly, given my limited knowledge and the confines of the English language). This does mean that there are many actions which are objectively "good" in that they lessen the sum total of suffering in the universe. There may in fact be multiple actions in response to any one situation which are "equally good." But what is most important is to avoid morally wrong actions. In our limited knowledge and experience this may not always be clear, but there is an objective and (hypothetically, scientifically speaking) knowable right and wrong answer(s).

At least, that's my view/understanding, based both on religious principles and the recently-introduced idea that science can measure and predict morally good and bad actions for a set definition of "good" and "bad."

edited 13th Sep '11 5:56:14 PM by BooleanEarth

"In the land of the insecure, the one-balled man is king." - Haven
YoungMachete from Dallas Since: May, 2011
#122: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:57:49 PM

[up] Speaking as a person who believes in moral relativity, that's a damn good way of putting it. Bravo.

"Delenda est." "Furthermore, Carthage must be destroyed." -Common Roman saying at the end of speeches.
BooleanEarth And a happy new year. from Banned Land Since: Jul, 2011
And a happy new year.
#123: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:59:12 PM

Thank you smile

"In the land of the insecure, the one-balled man is king." - Haven
Bwaaaa Since: Jul, 2011
#124: Sep 13th 2011 at 7:25:28 PM

Thread Hop

I don't think that there is ever any complete monsters because no one ever truly hates themselves. Their actions may seem senseless and monstrous to observers but they always have a reason no matter how twisted or warped that reason is. I always believe that if you ever truly understand somebody you can never hate them because you would know every little insignificant thing that lead them to where they are and maybe you would have done some things differently but you know why they did it.

TLDR: There are certainly monsters out there but in order to be a complete monster you have to truly hate yourself and I think that is impossible.

Bwaaaa

edited 13th Sep '11 7:25:44 PM by Bwaaaa

Like a mother hiding her scars history hides the lies of our unending wars
BooleanEarth And a happy new year. from Banned Land Since: Jul, 2011
And a happy new year.
#125: Sep 13th 2011 at 8:53:33 PM

[up]There is, however, the opposite theory as well: that to truly know someone makes it impossible to feel anything but hate for them, as to know them completely is to know every secret creepy and disgusting thought, every aborted evil intention, every malevolent lie, every flash of anger, every ounce of hypocrisy, jealousy, desperation, and arrogance.

I'm not saying I believe that, but if you're going to play that game you have to acknowledge both sides.

edited 13th Sep '11 8:53:51 PM by BooleanEarth

"In the land of the insecure, the one-balled man is king." - Haven

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