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kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#451: Dec 15th 2011 at 1:42:21 PM

Oh okay. Well... I didn't do that.

louis6578 Since: Sep, 2011
#452: Dec 16th 2011 at 6:08:55 PM

Casey Anthony. She murdered her own daughter and got away with it. It was practically proven she killed her, or at least somehow knew where the body was despite not having killed her innocent daughter, and not having reported anything to the police for over a month. She was out partying while her daughter was supposedly missing (Really dead the whole time). And when they found the body, without even confirming that it was Caylee's, but giving Casey the location that they happened to find the body, she started to ask for some pills to calm herself down, hyperventilating and stuff, which obviously shows that she knew something and probably did something.

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#453: Dec 16th 2011 at 6:15:36 PM

And how did she get away with it?

Firebert That One Guy from Somewhere in Illinois Since: Jan, 2001
That One Guy
#454: Dec 16th 2011 at 6:17:11 PM

She was found not guilty of murder, only of providing false information to a law enforcement officer.

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kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#455: Dec 16th 2011 at 6:20:52 PM

But how did she know where the body was?

thomwim from Toronto Since: Oct, 2011
#456: Dec 17th 2011 at 11:49:12 PM

I have no idea when or where she left the body. Sorry, but I find TV news to bore the life out of me.

Magic people, voodoo people!
tsstevens Reading tropes such as You Know What You Did from Reading tropes such as Righting Great Wrongs Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Reading tropes such as You Know What You Did
#457: Dec 20th 2011 at 7:47:51 PM

I think they can. There was this one guy listed on For the Evulz when it had real life examples who knew he was going to prison, so he thought he'd go down for something substantial and murdered an old man. He related how it was the ultimate high, better than any drug, to kill someone. I'd argue that any humanity he might have had was gone at this point.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours
Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#458: Dec 21st 2011 at 7:05:19 PM

Yes.

Some people are monsters. And I don't think there is any reason to try and make excuses for them. I've studied them forever, especially in regards of trying to heal the damage they have done to their victims.

Now, that being said, I can only name people who are monsters, not a blanket rule. This term should be on a case by case assignment because not even one sociopath is the same to another exactly.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
jackcayman Since: Oct, 2011
#459: Dec 23rd 2011 at 8:54:45 AM

I believe that this trope is too specific to apply to real people. Real humans are more complex than that.

Using a classic example of what some would consider a real life Complete Monster, I bring up Hitler.

Personally, I do not think Hitler was a Complete Monster. First of all, I don't think that a person needs to be a Complete Monster in order to commit the most heinous acts.

Second, I see Hitler as a reflection of what would happen if a fervorous bigot, like a religious zealot or a racist, were ever given absolute power over a country.

All of those people mentioned above have a personal philosophy and their own moral standards. The problem with them, aside from their prejudices, is that they are not afraid to attempt to force their beliefs on other people.

Hitler was given the opportunity to do just that.

I believe that Hitler, in his head, actually thought that everything he did was for the benefit of his country. He also, as the supreme power over Germany, had his country's law on his side, which only fed his delusion further.

So, to cut it short, I frankly believe that Hitler was simply a very ignorant man who was at the wrong place at the wrong time, and that's why the world had to live through the nightmare that weak-minded, delusional man put us all through.

edited 23rd Dec '11 11:50:29 AM by jackcayman

InverurieJones '80s TV Action Hero from North of the Wall. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
'80s TV Action Hero
#460: Dec 23rd 2011 at 9:01:13 AM

Thankfully, complete monsters rarely get any real power. No one trusts them enough or can stand them enough to allow them to get that far. They mostly live out their vile lives in scummy flats in nasty areas of cities.

'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'
Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#461: Dec 23rd 2011 at 7:08:36 PM

Or become serial killers and/or rapists...

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#462: Dec 23rd 2011 at 7:25:59 PM

But how do complete monsters come into existence? Hitler wasn't always a villain but the events that shaped his life and his career crafted him into the dictator that he was. Nobody ever see themselves as evil or wicked but still do we as a society through create our own 'monsters' or 'villains'?

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
OrKuunArQenByundis A Grey Sun Veiled By Dark Clouds on a Cold Wind from Under the Sun Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
A Grey Sun Veiled By Dark Clouds on a Cold Wind
#463: Dec 23rd 2011 at 8:50:59 PM

I've seen videos (on the darker side of the internet) of people throwing puppies off cliffs and beating dogs to death with shovels. I've read of people who've tortured, raped, and killed dozens of people for laughs. I've read of children who drive their peers to suicide, then brag about it afterward. I honestly see humanity as a whole as a Complete Monster when the cards are played right. Or, you know, wrong.

edited 23rd Dec '11 8:52:59 PM by OrKuunArQenByundis

Borne By Storms
betaalpha betaalpha from England Since: Jan, 2001
betaalpha
#464: Dec 24th 2011 at 3:12:59 AM

I agree with jackayman - the term Complete Monster is only really applicable in fiction, as nobody IRL is totally devoid of alturistic qualities. People in real life, even ones with severe mental health problems, brain damage or similar, are too complex for this label. Quite a lot of this thread is dedicated to arguing about this, and it's always a good talking point :)

There's plenty of irredemably evil real people though, IMO. As for how they came into existence, reading up on the backgrounds of example monsters (not complete ones, just monsters :) ) on Wikipedia is illuminating. Serial killers mostly seem to be the result of an awful upbringing. Genocidal leaders tend to gradually abuse their power over time, dissasociating themselves from and dehumanising their victims, spreading blame for evil actions down a chain of command and believing that what they are doing is in the greater good.

Gannetwhale Adveho in mihi Lucifer Since: Jul, 2011
Adveho in mihi Lucifer
#465: Dec 25th 2011 at 2:47:42 PM

I honestly see humanity as a whole as a Complete Monster when the cards are played right. Or, you know, wrong.

I still consider dolphins, chimpanzees and baboons more evil. True or not, complete monsters are by far a very small portion of the total human population. The other species I mentioned, however, are real life cases of Always Chaotic Evil.

A single phrase renders Christianity a delusional cult
KSonik Since: Jan, 2015
#466: Dec 26th 2011 at 1:43:23 PM

-Self thumped for probably going off topic-

edited 27th Dec '11 8:59:22 AM by KSonik

loganlocksley Occasionally Smart from On the ceiling Since: Oct, 2011
Occasionally Smart
#467: Dec 26th 2011 at 1:59:41 PM

They can't. Fish gotta swim. Birds gotta eat. Killing and eating other animals doesn't make a predator evil.

edited 26th Dec '11 2:00:34 PM by loganlocksley

He's like fire and ice and rage. He's ancient and forever. He burns at the centre of time. Rory punched him in the face.
Gannetwhale Adveho in mihi Lucifer Since: Jul, 2011
Adveho in mihi Lucifer
#468: Dec 26th 2011 at 4:19:53 PM

Raping isn't necessarily vital to their survival, given how countless other species never rape, and yet dolphins do so. Also, they commit infanticide, which would be justifiable (to avoid competition) if not for the fact that the mothers engage in it too.

Lastly, wild dolphins invarialy kill for no other reason other than for shits and giggles. Porpoises and seals, which don't compete with them at all, nor serve as food, have been wiped out in many areas conquered by bottenose dolphins. Similarly, even dolphins in captivity have been observed to lure and kill seagulls for fun as well.

edited 26th Dec '11 4:21:33 PM by Gannetwhale

A single phrase renders Christianity a delusional cult
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#469: Dec 26th 2011 at 4:31:04 PM

I would say that to be "evil," at the least, something would have to be aware of the general concepts of right and wrong, and willfully ignore them to do what it will. Since animals lack the cognitive ability to recognize and formulate theories as to what is right and wrong—i.e. they are not sapient—they cannot be "evil" in any meaningful sense.

I am now known as Flyboy.
betaalpha betaalpha from England Since: Jan, 2001
betaalpha
#470: Dec 27th 2011 at 1:57:14 AM

Animals like dolphins, baboons etc. also fail the 'no alturistic qualities whatsoever' rule - they do care for family members (when they're not eating them). I'm unsure about the 'evil' part but they certainly aren't the TV Tropes definition of Complete Monsters. Of course the same goes for homo sapiens too.

Apologies if you weren't making this case, and you just wanted to say those animals are Always Chaotic Evil - though you haven't really convinced me of that. How much infanticide, rape and other actions that hurt others actually happens per creature? Is it really nonessential? I can see rape (for animals only!) indeed being valuable for species propagation, and play (cruel or not) is important for developing skills and muscles, or discovering new survival techniques (I bet seagulls could become a food item in lean times).

Gannetwhale Adveho in mihi Lucifer Since: Jul, 2011
Adveho in mihi Lucifer
#471: Dec 27th 2011 at 4:44:28 AM

Since animals lack the cognitive ability to recognize and formulate theories as to what is right and wrong—i.e. they are not sapient—they cannot be "evil" in any meaningful sense.

Depends on what you consider to be "sapient". People bitch and whine about dolphins being smarter than mankind; if so, then they are even more monstruous than we are, since they are more intelligent than us but still choose to commit infanticide, rape and casually lead other species to extinction when we consider those actions wrong.

A single phrase renders Christianity a delusional cult
TroperOnAStickV2 Call me Stick from Redneck country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Call me Stick
#472: Dec 27th 2011 at 7:51:21 AM

I'll give you my take on it, without reviewing the whole topic(I have been following this the whole time, I'm just too lazy to review the whole thing when my point is essentially independent of what's been said): Do RL Complete Monsters exist? YES, resoundingly YES, and they're probably fairly common. But it's a subjective trope, and whom one person considers to be a Complete Monster may not be a Complete Monster in the eyes of another.

Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#473: Dec 27th 2011 at 7:54:39 AM

Well, as I understand the trope its main sticking point seems to be "doing absolutely, irredeemably vile things, knowing that and not being in delusion about it, yet doing them anyway and feeling no remorse". And yes, there are such people. Even if one argues that Hitler was no complete monster because he was in delusion, what about people like Kim Jong-Il? He was no ideologue. All he did (and it is monstrous!) was truly only for his own power and luxury. So that would be an example of a RL Complete Monster .

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betaalpha betaalpha from England Since: Jan, 2001
betaalpha
#474: Dec 27th 2011 at 8:57:50 AM

I'm not sure many people honestly believe dolphins etc. really are anything like as intelligent as humans. Alternatively, they may have intelligence, but their morality system, if they have one, might be wholly alien to us.

To me the main sticking point is that the Complete Monster is supposed to have _no_ alturistic traits. We don't know a lot about Kim Jong Il, but alturistic reasons he might have include: - protecting his family and closest associates at the expense of everyone else. - protecting same from the chaos a revolution or war would create - honestly believing that a firm hand is necessary to protect his country from dissolving into anarchy - suspecting that if he tried to change the system, his generals would simply depose him and rule in his place, changing nothing.

You might be right and he didn't give a damn about anything but his own comfort and power. But interviews he gave would indicate otherwise. So: a monster, maybe, but not a complete one.

diomedes2 Achillesforever6 from Monroeville PA Since: Nov, 2011
Achillesforever6
#475: Jan 6th 2012 at 8:54:24 PM

I don't believe in the idea of a complete monster, because that makes the person or persons in question not human, but some sort of boogeyman.

Also known as Achillesforever6 of Lordkat.com fame

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