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JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#101: Jan 11th 2011 at 1:30:31 AM

Because for the most part being self satisfied whilst injustice continues is one of the worst traits of apathy in the modern world?

And how is "making a bad marriage" solely the mans fault? Surely both people can be to blame for the breakdown of a marriage.

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#102: Jan 11th 2011 at 4:56:13 AM

Then have individuals unite on specific issues, not on sets of issues.

Sometimes that happens, but the problem with that is, if your goal is equal rights for men and women, starting a pro-abortion organization doesn't translate well to equal pay or domestic violence or whatever.

So the best thing to do, if you want equal rights, is to start an organization for equal rights.

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#103: Jan 11th 2011 at 9:13:46 AM

@Josef: It's not, the fault belongs to both of them. But there was a mistake there to start with, the consequences are just slightly more severe. That's unfair, but men still don't have it as bad as women, and shouldn't start a group devoted to solely their interests anyway.

edited 11th Jan '11 9:15:11 AM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Penguin4Senate Since: Aug, 2009
#104: Jan 11th 2011 at 9:33:57 AM

Masculism isn't beneficial to men and men alone, you know.

At what point are you allowed to complain and challenge social norms? Keeping in mind that, if you live in America, you can be virtually certain that some other group is worse off than you.

edited 11th Jan '11 9:34:15 AM by Penguin4Senate

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#105: Jan 11th 2011 at 9:39:43 AM

Really? Apart from collateral damage to a society that restricts women too, how does it not help men?

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#106: Jan 11th 2011 at 5:22:43 PM

By that, essentially. Why did you ask the question if you already knew the answer?

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#107: Jan 11th 2011 at 7:03:15 PM

That's it? That's pretty close to men and men alone.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#108: Jan 11th 2011 at 7:26:33 PM

No it's not.

If men are treated equally to women, women by definition are treated equally to men. Since that's the goal of the feminist movement, a true masculinist movement should always be helping feminism, and vice versa.

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#109: Jan 11th 2011 at 7:30:38 PM

You'd think so, wouldn't you? But as a matter of fact, that's not the plan. The plan is to work separately on different parts of the problem, with no cooperation between the two. In theory, that'd make things better, as they approached the same goal from two sides. In practice, the Masculist movement doesn't have nearly enough power on its own.

And very few feminists want to do much about discrimination against men.

edited 11th Jan '11 7:32:06 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Lavode Since: Jan, 2001
#110: Jan 11th 2011 at 7:35:17 PM

If there was just one kind of feminism, feminists and masculists (at least the majority) might eventually be able to agree that "okay, we resolve these issues and then we're done and everyone's happy". That wouldn't mean equality had actually been reached (or if it had, that society might not move away from it again). Western mainstream feminism still frequently faces criticism since it tends to focus too much on the interests of straight/white/cis/able-bodied/middle-class women and forgetting about the others, and because of this there's a lot of discussion. I think that's a good thing - no one can see all the injustices other people have to deal with, or make objective decisions about which injustices are most important. Hopefully, many kinds of feminism instead of just one = feminism that isn't just about privileged people's gender-related issues.

Lavode Since: Jan, 2001
#111: Jan 11th 2011 at 7:42:25 PM

And very few feminists want to do much about discrimination against men.

Many feminists (I'm one) are for gender equality, which means they're against discrimination against men, but also maintain that ending discrimination against men is not a goal of feminism. I don't know how many feminists actively work to do something about the problems that men face, though.

neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#112: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:08:14 PM

"All right, so in some situations men may get discriminated against. Sorry that is that way. But most of these are partially your fault anyway (committing a crime, making a bad marriage, hitting someone, girl or not)" - Ultrayellow

Yes, because nobody ends up in jail for crimes they didn't commit, and women never make a bad marriage.

Oh, and as for hitting someone, the reality is, women hitting men tend to be regarded more sympathetically than men hitting women. There is something hypocritical about that; we just don't know on whose part.

"That said, there are serious issues that it'd be nice if someone dealt with (mostly abuse) although our culture will change over time anyway." - Ultrayellow

You can't rely on that to happen on its own, though. It needs to be CONFRONTED.

"I also have zero sympathy for people who want to be effeminate, but are unhappy they're being Mistaken For Gay. It's unfortunate that being effeminate is stereotypically tied to male homosexuality. But I have trouble sympathizing with homophobic people unhappy that when they express themselves, people leap to a mistaken conclusion that they, basically because of personal bigotry, find humiliating." - Ultrayellow

Yes, because it takes personal bigotry to be unhappy at being mistaken for gay. It couldn't possibly be that I feel people need to know I'm straight to be aware of a certain key psychological factor that inevitably comes into play in the differences between my interactions with girls and my interactions with guys. It couldn't possibly be that I just hate these kinds of baseless assumptions about one's sexual orientation based on that which is irrelevant to it.

For what it's worth I don't recall any specific moments of being Mistaken for Gay myself, but the idea that it takes a bigot to be upset about it is just asinine.

neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#113: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:09:17 PM

"Many feminists (I'm one) are for gender equality, which means they're against discrimination against men, but also maintain that ending discrimination against men is not a goal of feminism." - Lavode

Fine, but confronting one form of discrimination while not confronting another based on similar logic is nothing short of hypocrisy.

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#114: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:33:03 PM

All righty, then. Let's do this.

"All right, so in some situations men may get discriminated against. Sorry that is that way. But most of these are partially your fault anyway (committing a crime, making a bad marriage, hitting someone, girl or not)" - Ultrayellow

Yes, because nobody ends up in jail for crimes they didn't commit, and women never make a bad marriage.

Operative word there being most. And what do you mean about women? That was about men making a bad marriage. It's the woman's fault too, but she'll generally get the advantage in the courts, so I'm not talking about her.

Oh, and as for hitting someone, the reality is, women hitting men tend to be regarded more sympathetically than men hitting women. There is something hypocritical about that; we just don't know on whose part.

I know. That was actually my point. Here, take a look at the thing you wrote directly below that.

"That said, there are serious issues that it'd be nice if someone dealt with (mostly abuse) although our culture will change over time anyway." - Ultrayellow

To put it in simpler sentences, abuse is bad. Women abusing men is equally bad.

Yes, because it takes personal bigotry to be unhappy at being mistaken for gay. It couldn't possibly be that I feel people need to know I'm straight to be aware of a certain key psychological factor that inevitably comes into play in the differences between my interactions with girls and my interactions with guys. It couldn't possibly be that I just hate these kinds of baseless assumptions about one's sexual orientation based on that which is irrelevant to it.

Why did you put that in Sarcasm Mode? Did you think it was funny? It makes you less deserving of a serious reply. However, may I ask you if your social circle is fairly intolerant? Because if not, it's a fairly laughable mistake. And so yes, I do think it takes personal bigotry. Not a lot of it, but some.

I hate doing quotes so much. Oh, well.

Edit: And it took me several tries, but I finally figured the darn quotes out.

edited 11th Jan '11 8:35:35 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Lavode Since: Jan, 2001
#115: Jan 11th 2011 at 8:36:54 PM

Fine, but confronting one form of discrimination while not confronting another based on similar logic is nothing short of hypocrisy.

I don't know, some people just prefer to have one "cause".

Clevomon Since: Jan, 2001
#116: Jan 11th 2011 at 9:02:38 PM

@Lavode

Agreed. People have a limited amount of energy, so they tend to allocate it to the one thing that most motivates them.

neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#117: Jan 11th 2011 at 9:05:56 PM

... even if the cause is VERY strongly related, implied by the same logic, and defending one without defending the other contributes to Double Standards in the first place?

Clevomon Since: Jan, 2001
#118: Jan 11th 2011 at 9:10:24 PM

That's why both groups should pool their causes together in the first place. Then, it's one cause.

neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#119: Jan 11th 2011 at 9:12:03 PM

"However, may I ask you if your social circle is fairly intolerant? Because if not, it's a fairly laughable mistake. And so yes, I do think it takes personal bigotry. Not a lot of it, but some." - Ultrayellow

And exactly WHAT do you base this on?

Also, what are you saying is a "fairly laughable mistake"? (And no, I don't have much of a social circle anyway but I don't think the people in it are intolerant.)

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#120: Jan 12th 2011 at 3:11:55 PM

Fine, but confronting one form of discrimination while not confronting another based on similar logic is nothing short of hypocrisy.

No it's not.

The Black Panthers were never obligated to fight for the rights of white people. The AARP has no obligation to fight for the rights of young people.

Why should feminists have to fight for men's rights? It's not their thing; it's just a distraction from what they're there to do.

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#121: Jan 12th 2011 at 3:14:12 PM

Being Mistaken for Gay.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
LeighSabio Mate Griffon To Mare from Love party! Since: Jan, 2001
Mate Griffon To Mare
#122: Jan 13th 2011 at 3:21:41 PM

[up][up] Feminists are under no obligation to fight for men's rights. But they are under obligation, if they do not do so, not to say that feminism supports complete equality of the sexes or that it benefits men just as much as it does women.

edited 13th Jan '11 3:21:49 PM by LeighSabio

"All pain is a punishment, and every punishment is inflicted for love as much as for justice." — Joseph De Maistre.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#123: Jan 13th 2011 at 6:25:09 PM

^^The second, maybe not.

But the first one is true whether or not they fight for men's rights in the same sense that the ACLU supports second amendment rights whether or not they actually fight for them.

LeighSabio Mate Griffon To Mare from Love party! Since: Jan, 2001
Mate Griffon To Mare
#124: Jan 13th 2011 at 6:37:16 PM

[up] It's true, at least, of feminists who don't actively oppose or criticize masculists and their causes. But some feminists do actively oppose and criticize those causes.

"All pain is a punishment, and every punishment is inflicted for love as much as for justice." — Joseph De Maistre.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#125: Jan 13th 2011 at 6:42:49 PM

Yes... because they believe that men have no rights issues.

They're wrong, but they still believe in complete equality of the sexes. They just believe that all the work needs to be done on their side.


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