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LeighSabio Mate Griffon To Mare from Love party! Since: Jan, 2001
Mate Griffon To Mare
#1: Jan 8th 2011 at 11:23:26 AM

So, what do you think of the masculist movement?

I think that men's issues are important in today's society, where there is about the same amount discrimination against both sexes. For instance, I don't believe in circumcision, I think there should be shelters for men who experience domestic violence like there are for women, I think that a woman forcing a man to penetrate her should be considered rape by law, and that prostate cancer research needs more funding. I also think that historical atrocities against men tend to get glossed over in favor of focusing on the historical power of men.

That said, I'm hesitant to identify with the masculist movement. A lot of the more radical masculists seem to want women to return to rigid gender roles, are mistrustful of anything feminist, or maintain that there is no discrimination against women in society. I also think that the "Tomboys are cool, effeminate boys are Butt Monkeys" Double Standard is at least as sexist against women as it is against men, because it portrays femininity as a weakness/character flaw.

"All pain is a punishment, and every punishment is inflicted for love as much as for justice." — Joseph De Maistre.
CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#2: Jan 8th 2011 at 11:49:09 AM

?... There may be a sexism against men but men have most of the levers of power to change that if they want. The fact is, that as an aggregate, the men in power don't want to.

Most sexism against men comes from machismo which is very much self-inflicted as an aggregate of the gender.

and that's how Equestria was made!
CommandoDude Since: Jun, 2010
#3: Jan 8th 2011 at 12:06:48 PM

"men have most of the levers of power to change that if they want."

The vast majority of men do not. I'm so sick and tired of people treating men like some kind of cohesive movement or unit. The average Joe doesn't hold that power. Hell, even most politicians don't since they're only 1 person.

I'm a masculist and Imo men's rights are more important at this time then women's. Unlike women, Men often face legal discrimination in the criminal justice system and in civil disputes.

saladofstones3 Since: Dec, 1969
#4: Jan 8th 2011 at 12:18:51 PM

I will say that the issues of female-on-male domestic violence has been taken more seriously, at least by the LAPD. Of course, I know guys who consider any man who was raped by a woman to be a complete pussy but they are very much the unwanted minority. :V

But given the mess that is dealing with Domestic Violence, I'm sure they aren't taking any chances considering how quickly that can escalate.

edited 8th Jan '11 12:19:17 PM by saladofstones3

CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#5: Jan 8th 2011 at 12:31:43 PM

I'm so sick and tired of people treating men like some kind of cohesive movement or unit.

This would be more of an interesting argument if you didn't contradict this statement with your other paragraph basically treating men as one unit.

and that's how Equestria was made!
Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#6: Jan 8th 2011 at 12:39:14 PM

What do I think?

I think there are real problems. However, my experience is that this particular movement, instead of seeing itself as an off-shoot of the general feminist movement (that is, breaking down rigidly defined gender roles) places itself in a position as strictly opposed to feminism.

It seems to be more about conflict than resolution. I personally think it's a good example of "Why we can't have nice things"

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
CommandoDude Since: Jun, 2010
#7: Jan 8th 2011 at 12:39:49 PM

"other paragraph basically treating men as one unit."

Err. What? No, I didn't. There's a difference between a collective movement and group identification.

Just because men as a whole experience discrimination doesn't make them a political entity on virtue of being.

CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#8: Jan 8th 2011 at 12:46:23 PM

Just because men as a whole experience discrimination doesn't make them a political entity on virtue of being.

Not every man experiences discrimination based on their gender. I'm male and also a visible minority. I've experienced FAR FAR more discrimination based on the latter than the former.

and that's how Equestria was made!
CommandoDude Since: Jun, 2010
#9: Jan 8th 2011 at 1:04:51 PM

Have you ever been accused of a crime? Been convicted? I hope you haven't, because if you are you'll almost definitely receive a sentence heavier then a woman would.

Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that others aren't victim of it.

CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#10: Jan 8th 2011 at 1:13:06 PM

The odds of me being accused of a crime and getting an unfair sentence because of my gender are lower than the odds of me being struck by lightning.

and that's how Equestria was made!
CommandoDude Since: Jun, 2010
#11: Jan 8th 2011 at 1:54:21 PM

You so sure about that?

Facts are darned this. And the fact is women get preferential treatment in the justice system in everything from criminal convictions to child custody.

CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#12: Jan 8th 2011 at 3:10:00 PM

The article you linked isn't about people being wrongfully convicted because of gender. It's about harsher sentences which is pretty unlikely to apply to me because I don't plan on committing a crime in my life. Your argument may have merit but the linked article simply doesn't apply.

Besides, I'm not going to feel sorry for criminals that receive 20-40% more jail time and it's ludicrous that you'd expect me to think so.

and that's how Equestria was made!
saladofstones3 Since: Dec, 1969
#13: Jan 8th 2011 at 3:13:40 PM

I can tell you that a man will always receive a harsher sentence. Its a lot easier for the defense to play up the woman as being less guilty and in some way screwing over the male element of the crime.

Just because a person is a criminal doesn't mean they should be treated unfairly, they deserve a fair sentence.

edited 8th Jan '11 3:14:11 PM by saladofstones3

CommandoDude Since: Jun, 2010
#14: Jan 8th 2011 at 3:29:41 PM

"The article you linked isn't about people being wrongfully convicted because of gender."

Which I never said it did, don't put words in my mouth.

CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#15: Jan 8th 2011 at 3:50:54 PM

"The article you linked isn't about people being wrongfully convicted because of gender."

Which I never said it did, don't put words in my mouth.

Alright, let's break the argument down and paraphrase it.

I said: "The odds of me being accused of a crime and getting an unfair sentence because of my gender are lower than the odds of me being struck by lightning."

You said:"You so sure about that?" and linked to the article in question implying something was wrong with my point. I said the article didn't apply to me because I didn't have plans on committing a crime and the article didn't have anything to do with wrongful conviction.

I still feel no sympathy for criminals but I recognize that logically the justice system is more concerned with punishment than with prevention and rehabilitation which is far from a gender issue. Start fixing that and any gender issue regarding convicted criminals becomes a lot less significant.

and that's how Equestria was made!
Saxon Since: Nov, 2010
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#17: Jan 8th 2011 at 4:29:58 PM

An endevour too easily perverted to horrific means of control and anti-women screeds.

Basic opinion.

LeighSabio Mate Griffon To Mare from Love party! Since: Jan, 2001
Mate Griffon To Mare
#18: Jan 8th 2011 at 5:58:29 PM

Masculinity is dying.

I'd say it's not so much dying as women are moving into masculine roles, so men are, as a reaction, moving into more feminine roles. So long as the average man and the average woman are different from each other in certain ways, masculinity (and femininity) will be alive and well. But I think that the labels "masculine" and "feminine" should be descriptive rather than prescriptive. In other words, it's okay to comment on how men and women differ on average, so long as these comments aren't used to pressure men and women to fit into their gender role.

But I do see a bit of a men's issue in masculinity being devalued. By which I mean, men who are involved masculine things such as sports or fraternities being negatively stereotyped as Dumb Muscle. But I think that overall, a man will generally catch more flack for being "too feminine" by society's standards than for being "too masculine."

An endevour too easily perverted to horrific means of control and anti-women screeds.

Any identity politics can go this way. Unless you oppose all identity politics in general on these grounds, this is no reason to oppose all masculists.

edited 8th Jan '11 6:00:58 PM by LeighSabio

"All pain is a punishment, and every punishment is inflicted for love as much as for justice." — Joseph De Maistre.
Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#19: Jan 8th 2011 at 6:02:34 PM

@Leigh: It's inherently whiny.

"Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." — Malcolm X

Not a fan of the speaker, but the point is sound.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
LeighSabio Mate Griffon To Mare from Love party! Since: Jan, 2001
Mate Griffon To Mare
#20: Jan 8th 2011 at 6:04:15 PM

But isn't masculism an attempt to take more freedom, equality, and justice?

"All pain is a punishment, and every punishment is inflicted for love as much as for justice." — Joseph De Maistre.
MarkVonLewis Since: Jun, 2010
#21: Jan 8th 2011 at 6:07:43 PM

I've always been rather irked at the idea that domestic abuse is only one way, and if a woman abuses a man then it's not abuse.

I dunno, I'm all for some more equality for men, as occasionally we get shafted for arbitrary reasons, but a masculist movement? That just seems petty and spiteful, particularly some of the extreme views previously mentioned.

edited 8th Jan '11 6:07:55 PM by MarkVonLewis

JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#22: Jan 8th 2011 at 6:08:46 PM

True, which is why I dislike identity politics in almost all its particulars. I dislike anything that cannot prove its own existence is warranted, and thus far (despite SOME evidence) I have not seen enough to suggest that masculism is either neccesary nor desirable.

[up] It is abuse, it just gets reported less, I have to deal with it in one of my voluntary jobs.

edited 8th Jan '11 6:10:08 PM by JosefBugman

JackMackerel from SOME OBSCURE MEDIA Since: Jul, 2010
#23: Jan 8th 2011 at 6:16:12 PM

Most sexism against men comes from machismo which is very much self-inflicted as an aggregate of the gender.

You are aware not every man is a MANLY MAN MAN MAN who pumps iron and punches people with his beard?

Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.
Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#24: Jan 8th 2011 at 6:27:08 PM

@Leigh: No, it's whining about how women have more rights than they do.

Unmanly

Manly: Kicking an ambassador down a well because he demands earth and water as a symbol of submission.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
Scrye Since: Jan, 2001
#25: Jan 8th 2011 at 6:31:49 PM

It wasn't the kick that was manly, it was his defiance against the order to submit that was manly. Women can do that and not be considered manly, without stigma. People forget that masculine values don't always apply negatively to women.

"True story, I came when I read Scrye's story, and so did everyone within five miles." —OOZE

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