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Do Boys Really Have Trouble Relating To A Feminine Lead?

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Beholderess from Moscow Since: Jun, 2010
#51: Jan 8th 2011 at 9:07:25 PM

Don't try to tell me you can't get little boys to root for a female character...as long as she is a character who just happens to be female, rather than a FEMALE!character. Too many female characters are actually FEMALE!characters, defined first and foremost by the fact that they are GIRLYGIRLYGIRLS (OMG)!!!
This. So very much!!!

As far as I know, males tend to have little problem playing females in games that have Purely Aesthetic Gender. Why not treat it the same way in fiction? I mean, how often do writers of male characters underline, over and over, that they are males?

edited 8th Jan '11 9:07:57 PM by Beholderess

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#52: Jan 8th 2011 at 9:50:54 PM

A fantasy author named Brent Weeks talked about how male fiction writers have a very hard time adequately creating heroic/strong female characters. Oftentimes, male writers masculinize female characters in an implausible fashion while still ostentatiously reminding the audience that they have a uterus. Some writers call this the "Men with Boobs" effect. Someone else mentioned the video game WET, and I think that's actually a good example.

Many of my female friends have looked at "Men with Boobs", complaining that they don't resemble women in a believable fashion. To put it in other words, male writers (and some female writes) have a habit of trying way too hard to make a female character strong, fit, and courageous to the point where she doesn't feel like a real woman. This is the reason why I don't have a problem with female characters who are at least somewhat sexualized and given romantic aspirations, but not to the point where they become a walking Romantic Plot Tumor, as a pointed out in a previous post on page 1.

It's okay for a female character to have a love interest or some semblance of sex appeal (Samus Aran in her Zero suit comes to mind), but those qualities should not be the totality of their existence in the story. On the flip side, I'm not impressed with a beer guzzling, gun wielding killing machine who scratches her crotch, burps, farts while still looking good in a bikini unless the writer can make these qualities an intrinsic part of her characterization. As one other person already stated, it's very tiresome - if not insulting to the reader/viewer/player - to have the character's status as a female shoved into our faces as in "in case you forgot, I'm a woman with breasts, a vagina, and menstrual problems but I'm socially unconventional because I have a working knowledge of marksmanship".

Striking a balance in between the two is a difficult task for many writers, especially in science fiction. However, some people can accomplish this with relative ease, so I still have hope as both a consumer and as a writer.

Addendum: Another part of the problem with female characters, like writing in general, is that the writer is too focused on using tropes to build a character rather using experiences and intuition to create a believable person in a fictional universe. Put simply, the "Men with Boobs" problem is one of the differences between a multi-dimensional character and a stereotype or unintentional caricature.

edited 8th Jan '11 9:55:14 PM by Aprilla

Scrye Since: Jan, 2001
#53: Jan 8th 2011 at 9:59:32 PM

I have more of a problem relating to Michael Cera in any of his movies than I do relating to Kate Beckinsale in Underworld.

"True story, I came when I read Scrye's story, and so did everyone within five miles." —OOZE
OOZE Don't feed the plants! from Transsexual,Transylvania Since: Dec, 1969
Don't feed the plants!
#54: Jan 8th 2011 at 10:00:20 PM

I have no problems relating to a female lead (REGARDLESS of femininity). However, I dislike the attitude running through this thread that we need to do something to change other people's attitudes, because it makes me feel guilty writing male protagonists.

I'm feeling strangely happy now, contented and serene. Oh don't you see, finally I'll be, somewhere that's green...
Scrye Since: Jan, 2001
#55: Jan 8th 2011 at 10:02:54 PM

Don't look at me. My point was that Michael Cera shows less masculinity than Selene.

I like both male and female leads.

"True story, I came when I read Scrye's story, and so did everyone within five miles." —OOZE
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#56: Jan 8th 2011 at 10:09:42 PM

@OOZE: As long as your characters are interesting and thought-provoking, don't sweat it. This is just shop talk as far as I'm concerned.

@Scrye: Michael Cera is a type-cast awkward nerd, and you're an outspoken United States Marine. I don't really see how you could compare to him anyway. I can see soldiers and marines, male and female, relating to someone like Selene for the simply fact that she's a good fighter who gets shit done.

edited 8th Jan '11 10:10:20 PM by Aprilla

Scrye Since: Jan, 2001
#57: Jan 8th 2011 at 10:11:16 PM

What are you talking about? I just like to wear tight leather catsuits.

"True story, I came when I read Scrye's story, and so did everyone within five miles." —OOZE
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#58: Jan 8th 2011 at 10:14:51 PM

[up]Oh, well there you go. Everyone's happy.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#59: Jan 9th 2011 at 12:20:56 AM

To original post. it is highly dependent on the role in the movie.

Who watches the watchmen?
Yachar Cogito ergo cogito from Estonia Since: Mar, 2010
Cogito ergo cogito
#60: Jan 9th 2011 at 3:41:35 AM

Short answer to OP from my experience: no.

'It's gonna rain!'
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#61: Jan 9th 2011 at 2:01:21 PM

I saw Easy A today, I really liked it.

There weren't really any male lead characters in it, but the movie was really good, mostly thanks to Emma Stone. She seems so fucking smart and pragmatic, I'd love to meet her.

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#62: Jan 9th 2011 at 2:12:39 PM

I persist to elaborate on that opinion, and I am then questioned for my sexuality.

That is so fucking irritating. Can't a dude want to be "girly" and still prefer women? Can't a woman want to be "manly" and still prefer boys? And why is "tomboyishness" a sign of immaturity? Is maturity "giving up to the pressure of society's mold"?

edited 9th Jan '11 2:14:00 PM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#63: Jan 9th 2011 at 2:15:05 PM

I prefer tomboyish girls in many ways.

There's a bit of a line for me, you don't have to be the manliest man out there to get my respect, just don't be a limp-wristed effeminate twit.

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#64: Jan 9th 2011 at 2:16:28 PM

Okay, let me see... what about Eddie Izzard? Or Titanic!Leonardo Di Caprio? Or Orlando Bloom? Or Interview With The Vampire!Brad Pitt?

Of course, lots of pink and camp and kittens and Umbridge levels of Kawaisa are damn irritating for both sexes.

edited 9th Jan '11 2:19:03 PM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
SandJosieph Since: Dec, 2009
#65: Jan 9th 2011 at 2:33:57 PM

Meh...those guys never got me hot under the color.

Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#66: Jan 9th 2011 at 2:57:08 PM

It's actually Di Caprio's current look that I dislike. He looks like an unsuccessful FTM transsexual, whereas when he was younger, he looked like a cismale, albeit one in his mid teens.

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#67: Jan 9th 2011 at 2:59:56 PM

...

... Dude that was harsh- Even I think he's grown into a manly-man dude.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
snailbait bitchy queen from psych ward Since: Jul, 2010
bitchy queen
#68: Jan 9th 2011 at 3:44:19 PM

That is so fucking irritating. Can't a dude want to be "girly" and still prefer women? Can't a woman want to be "manly" and still prefer boys? And why is "tomboyishness" a sign of immaturity? Is maturity "giving up to the pressure of society's mold"?

This. So much. I was watching someone stream Deadly Premonition, and everyone was like "OMG IZ HE GHAY?" when this effeminate cop appeared in the game. It annoys me that effeminate = gay in a lot of people's minds.

edited 9th Jan '11 3:45:17 PM by snailbait

"Without a fairy, you're not even a real man!" ~ Mido from Ocarina of Time
wuggles (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#69: Jan 9th 2011 at 3:54:19 PM

@ Tongpu

Wow. That was unnecessary.

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#70: Jan 9th 2011 at 4:00:21 PM

[up][up]Not that there's anything wrong with being either, dammit.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
MarkVonLewis Since: Jun, 2010
#71: Jan 9th 2011 at 4:27:14 PM

On a semi-related note, I thought Vasquez in Aliens was attractive.

Then again, I have a thing for both Hispanic chicks and chicks who could very well kick my ass.

snailbait bitchy queen from psych ward Since: Jul, 2010
bitchy queen
#72: Jan 9th 2011 at 6:18:45 PM

^^ Very true. I'm gay and slightly effeminate so it doesn't bother me. It just annoys me that everyone instantly assumes that someone who doesn't conform to gender stereotypes is gay. I've met straight guys who are a lot more girly than me.

"Without a fairy, you're not even a real man!" ~ Mido from Ocarina of Time
Pingu Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
#73: Jan 9th 2011 at 6:40:42 PM

It's actually Di Caprio's current look that I dislike. He looks like an unsuccessful FTM transsexual, whereas when he was younger, he looked like a cismale, albeit one in his mid teens.
LOL, that made me laugh hard. I can totally see this, no offense to Leo.

edited 9th Jan '11 6:40:58 PM by Pingu

Scrye Since: Jan, 2001
#74: Jan 9th 2011 at 7:19:16 PM

@Tongpu: that made me laugh my ass off, because its kind of true.

"True story, I came when I read Scrye's story, and so did everyone within five miles." —OOZE
Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#75: Jan 10th 2011 at 6:44:01 AM

Dude that was harsh
Weird. This is one of those rare occasions when I really don't understand people's reactions at all.


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