I always thought that anyone literally outside of Earth in Nasu visiting would be reality benders of the same variety if not level as the Aristoteles. (Though if Madoka or Homura has visited with their karmic destiny through the roof they'd be that level)
Magical Girls would be bending the local reality, especially within the confines of their bodies, to the laws Madokaverse follows. Their powers would be Marble Phantasms but more absolute due to their status as outsiders (and presumably Gaia being unable to resist their efforts but Gaia is a busy spirit dealing with humanity already)
edited 2nd May '15 6:34:34 AM by StephanReiken
I have all of no idea as to what would make you think that.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!Because the Aristoteles are the only example I can think of, of actual outsiders visiting Earth in Nasuverse.
Nasu deals with literally everything as concepts and outsiders bring their own concepts with them shown by these outsiders. Even shown by spirits and demons and the other things on Earth.
Bringing Madokaverse to Nasu on Nasu's terms would mean such vistors are carrying that with them.
Madoka and Co coming to Nasuverse is a battle of concepts and whether or not their concepts of reality will dominate Gaia's concepts of reality (who is having a real hard time with all of these things happening on her that she can't snuff out). On this pattern of thought, vistors will likely keep their concepts (already strong enough to pass through somehow) and possibly inflict their concepts on others (any interaction outside of earth norm. Such as using magic)
Unless you want to change things to suit the story. The exceptions that happen all that time in Nasu is the result of stronger concepts winning. Like how Gae Bolg would essentially ignore God Hand.
edited 2nd May '15 6:49:58 AM by StephanReiken
Gae Bolg would kill Berserker but I do believe it'd still only take a life.
While you do have a point, the Types are something quite far beyond the magical girls. This is especially true since the magic that the girls use can be found in the Nasuverse (Mami uses Projection and Alteration [on Sayaka's bat], Sayaka uses healing magic and Projection, Homura uses something akin to the Second Sorcery, and Kyouko uses Alteration on her lance and those binoculars [and possibly Projection] while all the girls use Reinforcement on their bodies).
Their magic isn't really the problem (aside from Homura's since the Second Sorcery isn't quite the same). The problem is trying to get their backstories to work without the Incubators and wishes (which is a fairly minor one with the exception of Homura because she makes everything difficult) and trying to figure out why and how they'd enter the Holy Grail War (which I've figured out a few possibilities for most everyone).
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!Well, on my take of the situation they were somehow popped into Nasu. So the backstory just needs to cover that and if Kyuubey came with them he could be contracting and might start the Witch cycle up quickly enough for the first ones to get witches to repair their gems.
I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that outsiders from another earth would probably have reality marbles to keep their concepts alive. They'd probably be able to fight servants solo.
edited 2nd May '15 7:09:13 PM by StephanReiken
Ha ha ha, no.
Even though Homura has a time stop, she wouldn't be able to fight a Servant since she couldn't even hurt them. Mundane weapons do shit for dick against Servants. As for the others, there would be absolutely no challenge. Hell, a competent combat oriented magus could probably take them down. As for the Incubators, so long as they have their machine then they may be fine.
But I'm completely against what you're saying to begin with. You can't compare the magical girls to the Types because they're pretty much nothing alike.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!Mundane weapons used by mundane people are worthless for servants
A mundane weapon held by a Servant is as effective as you'd expect for that servant to be wielding. Berserkules uses a mundane weapon. That chunk of rock is not a noble phantasm.
as long as Homura dropped a bomb on a Servant's head or heart it will be able to kill them.
Magical Girls are using nonhuman bodies and are outsiders so automatically have stats in the group of nonhumans, such as Servants. And their stats are pretty high considering the feats they pull off. The speed they move at and the distances they can jump, the damage their weapons put out.. and as these would be reality based from their reality marbles these are extremely effective (not like the Magecraft of modern magi that is mostly fake, only doing enough to get the job done mainly limited by the ability of a magi to understand and the prana they have access to)
Now, if you are canon forging them into Nasu that would be different because you'd automatically assign them the limits of modern magi. And that is what you described earlier.
edited 3rd May '15 1:58:03 AM by StephanReiken
The bodies of a magical girl are still completely human. The only thing different about them from before they made their contract is that they've been strengthened, or Reinforced, to superhuman levels. If you've been watching the UBW anime (or read the route), you'll notice that Rin uses Reinforcement on her own body to pull off feats not too dissimilar from what the magical girls pull of (which the exception of Homura's pseudo-flying in the first episode which she never demonstrates anywhere else). The bodies of the magical girls are still completely human. The fact that they're empty shells being manipulated by the Soul Gems doesn't change that. As such, any mundane weapon used by them would still be a mundane weapon. The only ones that could arguable hurt as Servant are the weapons used by everyone but Homura since they seem to be made via magic.
The scope of their powers does not lie outside the reasoning of Gaia and, as such, they wouldn't be even remotely comparable to the Types. The fact that think they could handle your average Servant is just absurd seeing as how even UBW!Emiya Shirou would be able to defeat them provided he Reinforces his body.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!It has come to my attention that a Suzune character wished for the power to defeat wishes. I want to mock this for being the most redundant waste of a wish ever. Nagisa's cake looks like a good use in comparison.
On the other hand, this is the same character who made it to her twenties fighting witches, so who's laughing now?
That said, you're better off wishing to control grief.
Now that would be the best wish ever provided you could also control your own as you can make it impossible for anyone around you to turn into a Witch. You may have to worry about using too much magic but we've never seen anyone turn into a Witch simply because they used too much magic (to my knowledge and certainly not from an official source) so it's hard to say.
That's the wish of the main character of Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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Well yes.. Sense the witches are intelligent enough to speak if they wish them it is probably their own grief that drives there actions and they have enough power to do the things a normal person in that emotional state couldn't. We do see this with the witches of the main characters. Mami's traps people with her to force them to become her "friends". Sayaka recreated one of her best memories and attacks people who get in the way of that. Madoka who tries to create a perfect world inside her labyrinth.
We have no idea if those words and images are creations of the witch or simply constructions of the target victim upon having a massive load of grief dumed ito their head. There is more evidence of the latter as H. N. Elly would have had o knowledge of Mami or her death, meaning that those images were Madoka's thoughts. Any words said by the witches are also likely words thought of by the victim because a witch stuffed a load of grief into their brain
@Sereg: I agree that H.N Elly would had to draw from Madoka's mind to create of the images of Mami's final moments, but it would also taken some intelligence to actually know what imagines would have the effect she wanted.
And I don't believe that the witches are just magically dumping a ton of grief into their victims. We see Izabel speak to Homura in a way as to push to her over the edge. If it was Homura coming up with the words herself they would things like "I should die" but what we actually hear is "Maybe you should die?" And after she is saved she remembers the whole thing unlike normal witch victims.
H.N Elly read Madoka's mind and singled out a memory to drive Madoka into a despair but Madoka's doesn't have a witch kiss on her neck and remembers everything afterwards. I think the way the curse works is that have to actually push their victims by "normal" means to the edge in order to gain control over them and feed on them.
Actual we don't know that. Mami didn't seem to be around so she may have died in the battle plus the city still being destroyed in the fight.
edited 5th May '15 2:00:20 PM by higurashimerlin
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.Again, not if the choice was Madoka's.
I do. The show demonstrates that grief is transferable, that witches are suffering, that they drive people to suicide and that the witches seem to be doing this out of a need to gain relief from their suffering. In addition, it provides additional sources of energy for Incubators and is more efficient than talking people into killing themselves.
Hearing voices saying, "You should kill yourself" or "That knife is beautiful. You should stab yourself with it" is completely normal. It used to happen to me all the time, with no telepathy involved.
Again, this is just speculation.
Yes, we do. Kyuubey said that Madoka killed Walpurgisnacht with a single shot and then immediately witched from the effort.
edited 5th May '15 2:24:57 PM by Sereg
"I do. The show demonstrates that grief is transferable, that witches are suffering, that they drive people to suicide and that the witches seem to be doing this out of a need to gain relief from their suffering. In addition, it provides additional sources of energy for Incubators and is more efficient than talking people into killing themselves. "
While this is possible, it is not likely given what we know. The witches live off of grief or rather the magical power that comes from grief and despair. Imposing it on to others is to drive them deeper into a pre-existing despair and get back more than they started with. We know that witches target people who are already depress or weak as victims. This would rule out them cursing people to gain relief as the end result would be worst.
""Hearing voices saying, "You should kill yourself" or "That knife is beautiful. You should stab yourself with it" is completely normal. It used to happen to me all the time, with no telepathy involved. "" But in the end, even Homura treated it as the witch saying it given that she expected to get answers out of Nagisa in the rebellion story.
If the witches have to push people over the edge to gain power over them then that would explain them needing to target people who are already weak physically and/or mentally. Elly out right ignored Madoka until she got in the way of the mass suicide.
"Yes, we do. Kyuubey said that Madoka killed Walpurgisnacht with a single shot and then immediately witched from the effort. " Kyubey states that magic comes from the shift from hope to despair. Any great display of magical power is followed by despair. After using wishing for the power to defeat Walpurgis night she was simply emotionally in despair at everything and would naturally regret that she couldn't save everyone. So what Kyubey said is "kind of true".
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.In that timeline, Homura is the only active magical girl shown, and she did everything she could to prevent Madoka from encountering witches (by killing them all herself) or Kyubey (by killing the critter before he made contact with Madoka). It was only at the end where Madoka made a contract and shot Walpurgisnacht out of the sky, then immediately becoming Krimhild Gretchen, implying the fact that she does not know anything about being a magical girl other than "make a contract with me and you can save that girl who's getting beat up over there." The contract is made, Madoka fulfills her objective of saving Homura (which shouldn't bring despair in the first place), but witches out anyway.
Further proof that Madoka doesn't witch out due to despair is seen in the second timeline, where she survives the final battle but is writhing in pain, before witching out. At that point, neither she or Homura know what would happen if a magical girl's soul gem darkened completely, and only know that Soul Gems darken because of using their powers, thus their surprise at what actually happens. That also led Homura to the conclusion that they were being deceived.

And it doesn't help that the system is built on exceptions to a degree that rivals the English language.