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higurashimerlin Since: Aug, 2012
#52026: Dec 30th 2014 at 4:33:09 PM

[up][up]Witches are not the repressed emotion of the magical girls. They are the magical girls.

When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#52027: Dec 30th 2014 at 5:11:49 PM

According to the wiki, Witches are "the negative impulse that is called anxiety or suspicion, or excessive wrath or hatred; beings that spread the seeds of disaster across the world." As Kyubey basically says, they are curses personified. Going of off what we can see, Witches do seem to represent the suppressed emotions of whatever Magical Girl they were in life (assuming they were once a Magical Girl and not a familiar). Oktavia has all of her familiars playing classical music, something Sayaka didn't care for but represents her suppressed feelings for Kamijou. Kriemhild Gretchen doesn't represent any repressed feelings, to my knowledge, but rather her desire to try and save/help everyone (which is somewhat repressed seeing as how she doesn't see herself as anything special). Homulily represents Homura's repressed self-loathing and her desire to just die and end it all since she feels she cannot save Madoka no matter what (not how the Clara Dolls are supposed to act as Homulily's mourners since she feels that no one would mourn her passing.

So yeah. Witches do represent a Magical Girl's repressed emotions, to a degree.

edited 30th Dec '14 5:12:01 PM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#52028: Dec 30th 2014 at 5:22:25 PM

TBH they remind me of the Shadow Selves from the Persona series. Though I may just be going for the symbolic monstery connection.

Bewitching Eyes
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#52029: Dec 30th 2014 at 6:02:41 PM

Not quite. There are a few similarities, maybe, but not enough to draw any real comparison.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#52030: Dec 30th 2014 at 6:09:37 PM

Repressed feelings? A Shadow is the part of someone that they reject.

Bewitching Eyes
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#52031: Dec 30th 2014 at 6:20:40 PM

Witches are not the repressed emotion of the magical girls. They are the magical girls.

...I mean, there are some things in Rebellion that contradict that.

The Magical Girls are more imprisoned by the Witches than anything.

Or, rather.

Hmm.

I mean, a Witch definitely doesn't represent the Ego.

EDIT: I mean, the "real" Homura was sorta stuck inside of Homulily's body.

within the husk of the awakened witch is the distinct form of a magical girl

EDIT: And Sayaka kinda specifically said that Homura was the worst one off.

And Sayaka would know from experience.

Being a Witch is an existence of never-ending torment and self-flagellation.

edited 30th Dec '14 6:28:57 PM by unnoun

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#52032: Dec 30th 2014 at 6:39:33 PM

EDIT: And Sayaka kinda specifically said that Homura was the worst one off.

Which makes sense when you remember that Witches are usually so past the Despair Event Horizon that they probably don't even realize they are suffering. Homura was lucky enough for this to not apply so she was totally aware of what was happening to her eventually, and what she had become.

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#52033: Dec 30th 2014 at 6:41:53 PM

Being a Witch is an endless downward spiral.

It's like the decay and entropy of the universe have been applied to their emotional states instead.

Although.

Magical girls have always been witches.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#52034: Dec 30th 2014 at 6:42:21 PM

Oh, and GAP; Walpurgisnacht is several Witches pulled into one. She's like the Voltron Witch or the Megazord Witch.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
higurashimerlin Since: Aug, 2012
#52036: Dec 30th 2014 at 7:34:30 PM

@Zelenal: If kyubey was giving an honest explanation of witches, he would have at least say their are human.

They are not monsters.

They are not monsters with their true selves lock inside.

They are humans. Humans pushed pass the despair event horizon so much that they by their own will, will harm and kill others.

When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#52037: Dec 30th 2014 at 7:46:02 PM

An incomplete explanation is not necessarily an untrue one.

Kyubey tends to avoid saying things that are actually deliberately false.

And, no, based on Rebellion you're not entirely right about that.

Witches don't seem to quite have free will anymore.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#52038: Dec 30th 2014 at 7:49:54 PM

[up][up] No, not by their own will. Sayaka never wanted to kill anyone and she most certainly never wanted to almost hurt Madoka and force Kyouko into using a suicide attack. Witches are monsters. With one exception due to extenuating circumstances, a magical girl is as good as dead once she turns into a Witch. They have no capacity for rational thought since the only thing they do is hunt. Witches are not people, they're monsters. Tragic monsters to be sure but monsters all the same.

[up] Yeah, I can't recall and instance of Kyubey outright lying. He usually just withholds information or words things in such a way that they'll be misinterpreted.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
webidolchiu94 Since: Jul, 2010
#52039: Dec 30th 2014 at 8:33:45 PM

[up] Which is what parents tell little kids so they're not accused of lying, lol.

AceOfScarabs I am now a shiny stone~ from Singapore Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
I am now a shiny stone~
#52040: Dec 31st 2014 at 3:00:59 AM

Kyary continues to provide startlingly realistic Witch-realm footage.

The three finest things in life are to splat your enemies, drive them from their turf, and hear their lamentations as their rank falls!
webidolchiu94 Since: Jul, 2010
#52041: Dec 31st 2014 at 9:57:38 AM

.... that's unsettling. This means everything is real.

GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#52042: Dec 31st 2014 at 10:00:27 AM

^^ Between KPP and Me!Me!Me!, perhaps all of otakudom IS a labyrinth.

webidolchiu94 Since: Jul, 2010
#52043: Dec 31st 2014 at 10:06:46 AM

Actually, I agree with that statement.

AceOfScarabs I am now a shiny stone~ from Singapore Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
I am now a shiny stone~
#52044: Jan 2nd 2015 at 7:08:44 PM

In Me!Me!Me!'s case, the guy gets sucked into his girlfriend's Labyrinth after she has a breakdown when their relationship hit the rocks hard.

The three finest things in life are to splat your enemies, drive them from their turf, and hear their lamentations as their rank falls!
Mattonymy Mr. Dr. from The Evils of Free Will Since: Jul, 2010
Mr. Dr.
#52045: Jan 2nd 2015 at 7:25:01 PM

tl;dr Season 2 confirmed yet?

You are displaying abnormally high compulsions to over-analyze works of fiction and media. Diagnosis: TV Tropes Addiction.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#52046: Jan 2nd 2015 at 7:49:54 PM

Urobuchi has said that the story isn't finished yet. That's about it.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
LDragon2 Since: Dec, 2011
#52047: Jan 3rd 2015 at 2:45:00 AM

So it would appear that the YMMV page for Rebellion has the Idiot Plot in it. To quote:

"Several reviews have pointed out that a lot of the conflict in the movie is caused by characters dancing around each other cryptically and unnecessarily withholding information until the most dramatic moment arises, even when they have no need to (Nagisa is probably the most obvious example of this), and those reviews have also pointed out that the conflict and perhaps even the ending outcome of the movie could have been averted simply if all the characters had gotten together, sat down, and talked it out."

Meanwhile, the YMMV page for the main series has this under Hype Backlash:

"Many of the more problematic elements and themes of the show are generally glossed over in the fandom, leading one to be turned off when they realize the existence of these elements and themes in the show."

What say you guys?

edited 3rd Jan '15 2:46:55 AM by LDragon2

Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#52048: Jan 3rd 2015 at 5:49:01 AM

I say that you keep bringing stuff like this up and we fail to see the point. Opinions and tastes are things that exist.

The fact is that Homura needed to be kept in the dark for the movie as they were preparing a way to get her out without everything going to pot like it did.

Also, complaining about elements and themes without saying what they are is a completely useless criticism.

edited 3rd Jan '15 5:49:16 AM by Sereg

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#52049: Jan 3rd 2015 at 9:11:32 AM

Really, people who say that the plot could have been avoided if they all sat down and talked it out or revealed critical information from the get-go obviously weren't paying attention to the movie.

Sayaka and Nagisa couldn't reveal anything until they figured out a way to deal with Kyubey in order to protect Madoka, Madoka couldn't reveal anything because she only remembered everything for about three minutes of the movie's run time, and Homura didn't reveal anything to Madoka during the flower garden scene because her experience in Timeline 3 led to her never fully explaining anything to anyone (that and Kyouko, Mami, and Kyubey didn't believe her when she talked about Madoka before The Rebellion Story happened. Also, just how in the world does one explain to their best friend/love interest that she became the embodiment of hope in order to stop Magical Girls from turning into something that, as far as she and the others are concerned, doesn't exist?)

So while the ending is a result of several misunderstandings between Madoka and Homura, they're misunderstandings that simply couldn't have been avoided.

As for Hype Backlash, I say we keep the trope but wipe the text since it fails to actually explain anything due to being extremely vague.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#52050: Jan 3rd 2015 at 9:33:23 AM

Agreed. They all have good reasons for not saying anything, though Homura's reasons, while logical due to the events of Timeline three, are probably not the best conclusions to come to, since that method didn't help her do anything either.

One Strip! One Strip!

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