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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#1451: Mar 26th 2022 at 6:20:22 PM

You're still judging an entire 40 hour game based on five minutes of content that's about an entirely different set of characters. I think the root of the complaint is that the CT cast aren't important in Chrono Cross. It upsets people that the characters they like get offed as a footnote, without even a big dramatic sendoff.

But the reason the CT cast aren't important in Chrono Cross is because Chrono Cross isn't Chrono Trigger 2. Chrono Cross isn't about those characters. It's a different game telling a different story, not a continuation of Chrono Trigger. That's what I mean when I say that people are mad at Chrono Cross not being Chrono Trigger 2. They didn't want another story, they wanted more about the Chrono Trigger cast. They only got a little about the CT cast (because they're not important in CC), and what little they got made them angry because they felt like CC was disrespecting the CT cast.

Because they think the CT cast should be important in CC. Because they wanted CC to be CT2. Which it isn't.

Edited by NativeJovian on Mar 26th 2022 at 9:20:32 AM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
diddyknux (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#1452: Mar 26th 2022 at 6:24:20 PM

But were those really questions people had until Chrono Cross made them questions? "Why didn't defeating Lavos cause a paradox?" Trigger already suggested an answer—that the earth itself was creating the time gates to allow the party to save it. "What happened to Schala?" She died when the Ocean Palace was destroyed seemed like a pretty reasonable conclusion to draw.

I think the "Trigger's characters are mentioned for just 5 minutes and was mean" is a symptom of the real issue at the heart of it. (Although, if how the YMMV page for Cross describes "Prometheus's" death is an accurate account... Its kind of hard not to look at that as going overboard out of its way to invoke Player Punch) Trigger had what was for most people a satisfactory conclusion and Cross chose to undo it.

Its like... if Chrono Trigger is Terminator 2, then Chrono Cross is Terminator 3. Or pretty much any far-flung reboot of a decidedly wrapped up franchise, really.

EDIT: Ahhh, Ninja'd. To your point.. Yeah, I don't think you're wrong to say people wanted Chrono Cross to be Chrono Trigger 2. But also... you talk like this expectation is an unreasonable one? And I can't agree that it is.

Edited by diddyknux on Mar 26th 2022 at 6:26:58 AM

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#1453: Mar 26th 2022 at 6:39:33 PM

I feel like the people who don't appreciate how the game connects to Chrono Trigger would have actually preferred no connection at all and that Cross be entirely standalone. I would have preferred it that way, at least.

And it's really hard to ignore how Cross goes out of its way to shit on Chrono Trigger for basically no good reason. Sure, it's only five minutes, but it's five minutes that really stand out and didn't need to exist.

Edited by Karxrida on Mar 26th 2022 at 6:46:05 AM

Perseus Since: Nov, 2009
#1454: Mar 26th 2022 at 6:50:08 PM

[up][up][up] Again, if you would actually listen to what I'm saying, if the game had five minutes showing how the original cast had a generally happy ending, but oops, now the world's in shit again, and they can't help because reasons, so it's up to our new cast, I really don't think it would be anywhere near as much of an issue.

Doing them in like that feels spiteful. People don't enjoy when a thing they liked is treated with spite, especially by its ostensible successor. Shocking! How utterly irrational of them!

Edited by Perseus on Mar 27th 2022 at 12:53:01 AM

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#1455: Mar 26th 2022 at 6:57:40 PM

On the one hand, Perseus is completely correct.

On the other hand, the criticisms regarding the game's gameplay system (Too confusing? Really?) are so weird that I really do think people are complaining that's it's not exactly the same as what Trigger did.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Mega_zxa Since: Mar, 2015
#1456: Mar 26th 2022 at 7:31:54 PM

Remembering my playthrough of Chrono Cross one problem was that for all the characters that you could recruit, you barely had enough personality between them for one actual character. Made it hard to care about any of them and therefore the journey of the game itself.

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#1457: Mar 26th 2022 at 7:39:36 PM

[up]A mild exaggeration, but I get what you mean. Granted, I'm the guy whose favorite character is Janice, even though she gets maybe 5 lines of dialogue throughout the whole game.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Reflextion from a post-sanity world (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
#1458: Mar 26th 2022 at 7:39:57 PM

Yeah, to be honest, there's more than enough to criticize Chrono Cross for on its own merits, like the game suffering from Loads And Loads Of Characters as [up][up] mentioned, or the whole "Dwarves and Faeries" subplot and its tragicomically scuffed attempt at An Aesop about The Chain of Harm

Edited by Reflextion on Mar 26th 2022 at 10:40:11 AM

Someone did tell me life was going to be this way.
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#1459: Mar 26th 2022 at 7:42:06 PM

Chrono Cross is a game with very low lows but also very high highs. It has tons of flaws, but in the end I find it more fun to play than Chrono Trigger.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
SteamKnight Since: Jun, 2018
#1460: Mar 26th 2022 at 9:01:49 PM

Chrono Cross is a deeply flawed game that is also unfortunately has to suffer the fate of being connected to a game that is considered a masterpiece… So, the game has issues.

In term of story first because this is a rpg, umm… it’s kinda of a mess even if you don’t count the infamous dwarf purging the fairies stuff. It does start out fine, but as it goes on, it becomes kinda disjointed and feel kinda random. I feel like being forced to jump around places at times. The story do attempt to do something interesting with multiple paths and choices, but the “randomness” make me feel unable to appreciate it because it causes me to have no idea what causes things to happen or lead the story to that point. Not to mention, there is no multiple endings which is a weird choice for a game with multiple choices and paths.

And when the endgame begins, the story become even more unclear. Not because it’s super complex or anything like that but more because it doesn’t feel connected to the rest of the story so far.

In term of character, I’m really conflicted. On one’s hand, each one of them is unique and different, but it doesn’t equal good or interesting. On one’s hand, most of them are good on paper, but the way those characters are executed tend to leave as either bland or some sort of flanderized caricatures. And let’s face it, a lot of them don’t even make sense or connected to the story at all. It feels like a lot of them is the unholy result of collective fantasy world-building in something like Deviant Art and everyone try to make their OC as outlandish and weird as possible or some sort of meme contest. I mean living voodoo doll, random mushroom man, fluffy pink dog, sudden martian alien, skeleton clown dude… and so on. Look, I’m not trying to be the fun police here, but the entire thing just feel being random for the sake of being random.

And, once again, their characterization and execution also feels lazy as fuck. I can’t help but wonder is this game supposed to have the usual number of JRPG party members of 4 to 8 but suddenly being forced to be suikoden-lite by someone high above.

In term of gameplay, it has potential but it isn’t able to fully utilize it, lack polish, and clash with other parts of the game. A game with this many characters prefer to make each of them unique in term of story and gameplay to make each one of them stand out, so CC’s system making them pretty much interchangeable is unusual. I guess it’s trying to be like Suikoden with its rune system, but CC fails to take advantage of it properly, so it make the entire game messy.

Not to mention, I think the customization of the party members provided in the game is still sort of lacking, but I understand about technological limitations back then, so I digress. The battle itself is still decent and enjoyable, though.

I have no problem with the visual of the world and the music, though. I still remember how vibrant the color of the first village and kodo beach when I first play it after all this year. And I can still recall the music like the one in the starting menu even now.

It has all the potential to be a great rpg that could even rival Chrono Trigger, but ended up as just decent thanks to the build-up of a lot of those flaws. What a shame.

Edited by SteamKnight on Mar 27th 2022 at 12:03:09 AM

I'm not as witty as I think I am. It's a scientifically-proven fact.
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#1461: Mar 26th 2022 at 9:04:29 PM

[up]Chrono Cross has almost a dozen endings, just like Chrono Trigger.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#1462: Mar 26th 2022 at 9:07:29 PM

It's pretty obvious the character thing was a later addition. There's a few characters who were likely important the whole time (Kid, Harle, the ones who are actually plot relevant mostly), characters who were downgraded (Guile) a bunch who were obviously just NP Cs at first (Macha is the most obvious example of this one) and a lot who are clearly just filler. Mojo is very obviously in this category.

SteamKnight Since: Jun, 2018
#1463: Mar 26th 2022 at 9:10:50 PM

[up][up] Really? All I can remember is that it has one default ending, but if you do something right, you can unlock an extra epilogue after said default ending like in Kingdom Hearts. It’s been a really long time since I play it… I guess I misrember some parts of the game. I apologize for the mistake then. My bad.

Edited by SteamKnight on Mar 26th 2022 at 11:11:29 PM

I'm not as witty as I think I am. It's a scientifically-proven fact.
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#1464: Mar 26th 2022 at 9:11:54 PM

To me, the problem isn't that the characters aren't interesting or that there are too many of them, but that once a character joins (with rare exceptions) they get no more unique dialogue or plot relevance.

Edit - Here: https://chrono.fandom.com/wiki/Chrono_Cross_Endings

Edited by MightyMatilda on Mar 26th 2022 at 12:13:16 PM

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
SteamKnight Since: Jun, 2018
#1465: Mar 26th 2022 at 9:19:02 PM

[up] Well, that is one part and parcel with (more) characterization and execution. It’s also why I called it lazy since not only most of them basically become more of a npc after joining you, the few times their dialogue appear joining you (and not during their personal side quest which isn’t much), they just give some sort of generic quips.

Thanks for the link btw. I guess I need to refresh my memory there. [tup]

Edited by SteamKnight on Mar 26th 2022 at 11:19:38 PM

I'm not as witty as I think I am. It's a scientifically-proven fact.
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#1466: Mar 26th 2022 at 9:24:20 PM

Chrono Cross does have multiple endings, but it's like Trigger where they're all just bonuses for beating the final boss at different points in the plot during New Game+. There's no multiple endings in the sense that you get different outcomes based on story decisions. There's only one "real" ending which you get for beating the final boss the correct way at the end of the storyline.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#1467: Mar 26th 2022 at 9:58:19 PM

Again, if you would actually listen to what I'm saying, if the game had five minutes showing how the original cast had a generally happy ending, but oops, now the world's in shit again, and they can't help because reasons, so it's up to our new cast, I really don't think it would be anywhere near as much of an issue.

I'm not ignoring you and I'm not sure why you think I am. I've said repeatedly that it's perfectly fine if people don't like that about Chrono Cross, but what frustrates me is that every single conversation about Chrono Cross ends up being about Chrono Trigger because the people who don't like those five minutes in Chrono Cross won't talk about anything else in Chrono Cross and won't not talk about Chrono Cross.

Everyone is well aware of their opinion on the subject. There is literally nothing else to say about it. And yet every time CC comes up, the first thing (and often only thing) that gets discussed is the 0.2% of CC that is spent being mean to CT. It dominates the conversation. It's doing that right now. I'm not the one with the axe to grind here — I didn't bring it up to begin with, and I'd well and truly rather talk about literally anything else.

Remembering my playthrough of Chrono Cross one problem was that for all the characters that you could recruit, you barely had enough personality between them for one actual character. Made it hard to care about any of them and therefore the journey of the game itself.

That's true, and it's one of the biggest problems with the game, but I find it hard to blame them for what was clearly an experiment. I did think that having so many recruitable characters did an excellent job of showing how Serge and co. were affecting the people around them, and all the little recruitment sidequests did make for interesting content, but once they joined your party they no longer added anything to the game.

I feel like it would have been better if they could have had characters offer some sort of lasting bonus — not just "okay you did a sidequest so here's an item as a reward", but something useful throughout the game — then that would have been better. Hell, they do that at least once, when you have to get both Home and Another World's Zappa together in order to craft rainbow shell items. Some sort of unlockable nice-to-have-but-not-required bonus like that would be better for the majority of characters. Some of the really useless ones (like Poshul, the talking dog who serves no purpose but to give you someone to fill your party very early on) could stand to give you a normal sidequest-reward item or even get cut entirely. Like there are not one but two vegetable children party members you can recruit, and I don't think the game would be any worse off if they just didn't exist.

the whole "Dwarves and Faeries" subplot and its tragicomically scuffed attempt at An Aesop about The Chain of Harm

I feel like that sequence gets more flak than it deserves. I don't think you're supposed to take it at face value that either the dwarves or the fairies are right to blame humans for what happened. Like, the dwarves are clearly in the wrong by attacking and slaughtering others, with "it's the humans' fault, don't blame us!" is just an excuse. Humans may have caused the situation by inadvertently driving the dwarves from their home, but that doesn't make it okay for the dwarves to do it to someone else. The fairies mostly come off as traumatized and needing some space to process their grief, they're blaming humans because they're lashing out in the heat of the moment, not because they actually believe that humans are responsible for the dwarves' actions. But that's admittedly just my read on it and not made explicit anywhere.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Perseus Since: Nov, 2009
#1468: Mar 26th 2022 at 10:43:23 PM

I'm not the one with the axe to grind here — I didn't bring it up to begin with, and I'd well and truly rather talk about literally anything else.

You are, in fact, the person whose literal first reaction to the remaster trailer was "oh boy, can't wait for people to start complaining that Cross isn't Trigger 2 all over again."

Edited by Perseus on Mar 27th 2022 at 4:46:35 AM

AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#1469: Mar 27th 2022 at 12:29:42 AM

[up][up] You are in fact ignoring criticism that doesnt fit your "They dont like it because It's not Chrono Trigger 2" Narrative. I KNOW The hatedom is whiny and buthurt but you dont come across as much better if you choose to do that.

Edited by AegisP on Mar 27th 2022 at 12:30:44 PM

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
morenohijazo Since: Nov, 2009
#1470: Mar 27th 2022 at 2:14:27 AM

I think SteamKnight's post explained better than I could my own problems with Chrono Cross. It's a game with many flaws. The things that it gets right (mainly the artistic side), it gets them extremely right, but overall, they aren't enough to compensate the flaws, so the game can't stand above "decent" based on its own merits.

And that's where Chrono Trigger comes up. It wouldn't have been a problem if Chrono Cross was a decent standalone game. It wouldn't have been a big problem if Chrono Cross was an inferior sequel, but thoroughly respected its superior predecessor. It wouldn't have been as much as a problem if Chrono Cross was a superior sequel that shitted on its inferior predecessor. I think the problem is that many people consider Chrono Cross was a inferior sequel that shits on its superior predecessor.

I think it's the combination of the two points being discussed what causes the negative reception, not just either of them.

I feel like that sequence gets more flak than it deserves. I don't think you're supposed to take it at face value that either the dwarves or the fairies are right to blame humans for what happened. Like, the dwarves are clearly in the wrong by attacking and slaughtering others, with "it's the humans' fault, don't blame us!" is just an excuse. Humans may have caused the situation by inadvertently driving the dwarves from their home, but that doesn't make it okay for the dwarves to do it to someone else. The fairies mostly come off as traumatized and needing some space to process their grief, they're blaming humans because they're lashing out in the heat of the moment, not because they actually believe that humans are responsible for the dwarves' actions. But that's admittedly just my read on it and not made explicit anywhere.

I would agree with you if that sequence was a one-time thing, but the game overall has a "Humans Are the Real Monsters" theme that hints that your interpretation is not what the developers intended to tell. There's also the Marbule demi-humans subplot, with the Sage of Marbule IIRC outright telling that he considers all humans jerkasses when the party asks him for help regarding the Sea of Eden. And there's the Reptites / Dragonians subplot, which (as the page here says) paints humans as an unnatural evolution due to exposure to Lavos, effectively stating that humans can't live in harmony with nature (as opposed to the Dragonians).

AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#1471: Mar 27th 2022 at 2:40:33 AM

I will say one AWESOME thing about the game I JUST REALIZED is that the happy ending is for the humans. The hypocritical demihumans and dwarves kinda get told to fuck off offscreen lol.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
diddyknux (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#1472: Mar 27th 2022 at 3:46:02 AM

[up][up] Huh? That last part makes no sense, humans existed before Lavos. Unless it's saying it's responsible for literally all human evolution, as in the fact that humans evolve at all?

Actually, that's a curious thing I just realized. We know that Lavos let humans evolve to use magic during the time of Zeal Kingdom, but after they woke it up and it destroyed them, humans couldn't use magic anymore. Ever. They had the potential for it, but in the rest of the time periods in Trigger, we never see another magic wielding human. And even with your magic, when you visit Zeal-time, someone comments that your party's magic is very basic.

terumokou Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object from In a bamboo forest full of bunnies, California Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object
#1473: Mar 27th 2022 at 3:48:40 AM

[up][up]You're not wrong dude. Frankly, the dwarves can particularly piss off and repeatedly kicked off the waterfall for the fairy genocide and being hypocrites about preserving the environment with their smoke spewing tank.

Edited by terumokou on Mar 27th 2022 at 3:49:00 AM

Burning love!
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#1474: Mar 27th 2022 at 3:51:32 AM

[up]Thanks. I just came up with it and if that was the intent of the creators I would love it. I dont think it is but meh, AWESOME.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#1475: Mar 27th 2022 at 3:58:41 AM

It's part of that magic goes away trope that also involves the fantasy races dying out.

Since the regular human world is A-OK.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"

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