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johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#276: Apr 28th 2012 at 9:26:37 PM

Was there a point to that, nacks?

edited 29th Apr '12 10:08:16 AM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel
johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#277: Apr 28th 2012 at 9:39:10 PM

Speaking of feminist critique, I was bit let down when the Slayerhood turned out to be a curse cooked up by some patriarchal warlocks, whose descendants are the Watchers.

Are there no non-rapists in the world besides Oz and Giles? Assuredly not.

edited 29th Apr '12 10:07:53 AM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel
Nicknacks Ding-ding! Going down... from Land Down Under Since: Oct, 2010
Ding-ding! Going down...
#278: Apr 28th 2012 at 11:45:52 PM

In Buffy, men tend to either be neutered scapegoats or the potentially dangerous sexually active.

Okay, that's extreme, but it's not hard to see that the most positive men on the show are the more asexual. Gile's sexuality is associated with his old Ripper days, there's Oz's arc in season four, Angel's got that repression thing going on, and Spike seems to be only a positive influence when he's neutered. But there's a lot on the show about women discovering their identity as sexual beings, what with Buffy, Willow, Tara, ect doing the whole sexual emancipation thing. Women have to embrace sexuality and men have to deny it, say what now?

Then again, Buffy's always been disappointingly puritanical when it comes to women too. A great deal of the villains have that BDSM, Hurt/Comfort thing going on, and it's not hard to read Faith as a lesbian, or a kept girl.

Was there a point to that, nacks?

I just think the sex aspects have always been a significant part of the show's lining. They just didn't have as many sex scenes in earlier seasons — and when they did, it was the weird, creepy romanticised stuff that teen dramas do. Buffy was my first big introduction to sexuality as a child, and the one big thing I didn't get from it is that it's so much more about the other person in the room and not about how cinematic it looks doing it, or how monumental it is historically.

edited 28th Apr '12 11:50:12 PM by Nicknacks

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CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#279: Apr 29th 2012 at 7:59:55 AM

It was still daring in its own way though, being the first example of a prime-time lesbian couple, and one of the first to show such a couple without specifically drawing much attention to the fact that they were lesbian (they were a couple who happened to be gay, that was all). I believe The Body was the first prime time lesbian kiss on TV? And it was completely anti-climactic, not done to emphasise the kiss, just a natural normal thing in the middle of a very serious episode dealing with a death.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#280: Apr 29th 2012 at 9:59:53 AM

Technically, yes. LA Law had the first "bisexual"-lesbian kiss (ugh), DS9 had the first androgynous alien kiss (UGH!), and Buffy was the first to openly admit they were both lesbians.

...Even though Willow was technically bi, so.... God, sexual categories are stupid.

People like to lean on Trek for pussy footing (no pun intended) around same-sex relations. You need to remember that Trek had a huge following of kids at the time. The episode where Patrick Stewart stripped naked and was hung from chains and tortured was apparently very disturbing for children to watch. (Not so much due to the content but because they weren't expecting to see their hero suffer like that) My own standards being what they were at the time, and gay culture not really permeating the mainstream back then, I frankly would have opposed showing lesbian kissing on Star Trek or any other show with kids watching. Now that standards have loosened up (and you can't really put the genie back in the bottle with regard to exposing kids to sex), I don't mind.

edited 29th Apr '12 10:03:47 AM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#281: Apr 29th 2012 at 10:05:54 AM

I can forgive Trek for not exactly making waves with same-sex stuff the same way they did with race relations and so forth back in the classic series. Trek in the 1960s was a niche show with a small following and it's head constantly on the chopping block, I don't think the network gave two shits. Trek in the 1980s was a major franchise and they were hardly going to jeopardize it with this "progressive" stuff.

What I can't forgive it for is not doing something in the 2000s, when it was right back to be a cult phenomenon (largely because it's output had been getting shoddier) and moreover shit like Will And Grace was on and, as mentioned, Willow and Tara were allowed to do whatever. Hell, I would've taken a lisping show-tunes loving character, it would've been something.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#282: Apr 29th 2012 at 10:07:00 AM

Well, Malcolm was gay.

I'm a skeptical squirrel
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#283: May 2nd 2012 at 5:16:34 PM

Tara and Warren get their genes tested... to hilariously dark results.

dontcallmewave Brony? Moi? surely you jest! from My home Since: Nov, 2013
Brony? Moi? surely you jest!
#284: May 30th 2012 at 11:03:20 AM

I just got into this show, is there any good Standalone Episode anyone can recommend to me? I have aready seen the first four episodes of season one, Hush, and The Initiative.

He who fights bronies should see to itthat he himself does not become a brony. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, Pinkie Pie gazes Also
karasu91 Who, *moi*? from Sol 3 (Gaia), Milky Way Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Who, *moi*?
#285: May 30th 2012 at 1:29:22 PM

[up]Once More With Feeling. Very spoilery if you plan to watch more of the show, though.

edited 30th May '12 1:30:21 PM by karasu91

Let me explain! ...No, there is too much. Let me sum up!
Nicknacks Ding-ding! Going down... from Land Down Under Since: Oct, 2010
Ding-ding! Going down...
#286: Jun 7th 2012 at 2:42:44 AM

Not remotely a stand alone, that one. Given that it spoils a lot of developments over the years.

Um. I like The Puppet Show from season 1.

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KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#287: Jun 8th 2012 at 10:00:41 AM

"Hush" from season 4 is one of the few legitimately scary episodes of the series, but is also very dependent on knowing the situation surrounding it.

The truth is starting from season two ALL great episodes require some knowledge of the current story arc to fully appreciate. If you are looking for heavy stand-alone stories: "Halloween" from season 2, "Band Candy" (if anything for Anthony Head's teenage performance) and "The Wish" from season 3, and "The Body" from season 5 (which is the culmination of a season-long story-arc, but works on it's own as well).

Nicknacks Ding-ding! Going down... from Land Down Under Since: Oct, 2010
Ding-ding! Going down...
#288: Jun 9th 2012 at 12:08:42 AM

Yeah. Steer clear of The Body if you don't want to get spoiled. Season Five relies on a lot of reveals in general.

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CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#289: Jun 10th 2012 at 9:29:31 AM

The Body also is in a completely different style to the rest of the series, so doesn't work as a way of understanding what the series is like.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#290: Jun 10th 2012 at 12:08:56 PM

I just picked Season 2 for ten bucks. Score.

I'm a skeptical squirrel
HidingGames Awesomebender Since: Apr, 2011
Awesomebender
#291: Jun 25th 2012 at 10:24:06 AM

I just started watching Season 4.

Jesus Christ last season, the episode when they pretended to make Angel lose his soul again and they were just acting, gosh what a roller coaster. I was freaking out, feeling crappy throughout the whole episode seeing Angel being a bastard again, and then in the end they reveal it was an act. I had to stand up and get water for it because I seriously, seriously, did not see that coming.

edited 25th Jun '12 10:54:05 AM by HidingGames

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#292: Jun 25th 2012 at 10:43:02 AM

Man. Angel was, honestly, the least tolerable part of the show for me those first three seasons. I have low tolerance for characters who don't emote, whine constantly, and aren't even self-deprecating about it. The most I've ever liked him was in "The Zeppo", with the episode taking a pot-shot at his and Buffy's relationship.

I was honestly hoping he did go evil again, he was far more interesting that way.

edited 25th Jun '12 10:43:19 AM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
LizardBite Shameless Self-Promoter from Two Galaxies Over Since: Jan, 2001
#293: Jun 25th 2012 at 11:03:55 AM

[up]I felt very similar. Angel mostly bored me in Buffy... Though oddly enough, I really like him in Angel. Probably because Character Development kicks in and he actually gains the ability to smile.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#294: Jun 25th 2012 at 11:16:20 AM

I think it was mostly the romantic arc between Angel and Buffy that had almost no progression. He worked really well in the first season as the Mysterious Protector but the more we saw him and Buffy together the less interesting he was. Love or hate Buffy's relationship with Riley or Spike, with both there was at least some build up to the relationship. All of the Buffy and Angel drama was centered not around them finding they have feelings for each other but around the resurgence of Angelus, who is effectively a different person in Angel's body. He was also used to great effect during Faith's Start of Darkness in season three, which transferred really well into the Faith arc of Buffy season four and Angel season one.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#295: Jun 25th 2012 at 11:36:40 AM

[up]Actually, I love season 2 Angel because he goes rogue. Not so much for what he does to Buffy's brain in that state.

I couldn't sit through Angel. I got sick of the It Gets Better mindset.

Honestly, I think I liked Riley the best. The relationship was based on legitimate friction even if he was a little lacking in the personality department. Spike's relationship felt forced (and caused him some serious Character Derailment) and Angel was too damn mopey.

edited 25th Jun '12 11:37:05 AM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
HidingGames Awesomebender Since: Apr, 2011
Awesomebender
#296: Jun 25th 2012 at 11:40:45 AM

Spike has a relationship with Buffy?

Hm, well.... I'll look forward to that, I guess.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#297: Jun 25th 2012 at 11:42:54 AM

[up]Shit, sorry! I should've spoiler-tagged that for you.

Really, though, don't look forward to it. The way the whole thing was written gives me the impression the writers were more baffled than the fans.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
HidingGames Awesomebender Since: Apr, 2011
Awesomebender
#298: Jun 25th 2012 at 11:50:51 AM

[lol] It's fine, it could have been worse.

To be honest I don't see how it would work out with him anyway, the thought of it... like, what? [lol] Though with what happened in the season 2 finale and "Lover's Walk" I think Spike could potentially be the funniest character in the show, so if anything I'll look forward to his return.

Swish Long Live the King Since: Jan, 2001
Long Live the King
#299: Jun 25th 2012 at 12:03:53 PM

Really, though, don't look forward to it. The way the whole thing was written gives me the impression the writers were more baffled than the fans.

Really? I don't see it...

I mean I think the relationship itself makes a modicum of sense. Buffy uses the relationship in order to feel something "good" after having been ripped out of heaven. Whereas Spike is pursuing the relationship out of the idea that he loves her(and without a soul, doesn't really understand what Buffy is doing to herself). It's the ending of the "relationship" towards the end of the season that makes the whole thing sketchy... But that's more due to the aversion to the actions themselves, than to the fact that the actions don't make sense...

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#300: Jun 25th 2012 at 12:13:19 PM

[up]It was Spike loving Buffy that's the baffling part. Comes out of nowhere wit no build-up. And totally fucks with the way souls work (though Whedon outright admitted those were just a cheap plot device to get Angel to make some modicum of sense and explain why other vampires couldn't have changes of heart and be worthy of redemption.)

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.

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