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Of the ethicness of Killing Children and its dependence on context.

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pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#101: Jan 5th 2011 at 9:26:28 AM

I am now tempted to go watch Generation Kill. I liked the book Blackhawk Down, but I can't stand watching the movie. One of my NCO's in my unit was actually there (relief convoy, IIRC). He's caustic-bitter about all of that.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#102: Jan 5th 2011 at 9:27:38 AM

About the event itself, or how it was portrayed in the book/film?

What's precedent ever done for us?
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#103: Jan 5th 2011 at 9:30:46 AM

To be mildly on-topic, the issue of child soldiers is more acceptable in fiction than it is in reality because writers create their own world with their own rules. In fact, this is how all fiction writing works. The reason why military types have a hard time adjusting to these fictional universes is partly because their willing suspension of disbelief is much more difficult to achieve via experience. Both Black Hawk Down and Blood Diamond were effective in their portrayal of child soldiers and non-military combatants because they A.) had technical advisors on the set, B.) demonstrated both their strengths and weaknesses on a psychological level and C.) didn't gloss it over with an ideological slant. The latter is especially true of Black Hawk Down.

There actually are a good number of stunt coordinators and technical advisors on movie sets who work closely with actors and other members of the film making process. However, and theguy pointed out, you have to balance entertainment with realism. I have a hard time seeing the plausibility of child soldiers in say, Gundam00, because the show doesn't fully encapsulate the actual horror and mental degradation a real child soldier experiences. And yes, I have worked with child soldiers in charity projects. Many of them have warped minds and severe drug addictions, and it's basically a case-by-case judgment figuring out which ones went to drugs to deal with the trauma and which ones were given the drugs to become soldiers in the first place. Very few works of fiction have truly captured the extent of this damage.

This has already been pointed out, but really guys, to be fair, if someone doesn't tell the REAL story of what it means to be a soldier, then some ass hat will happily step up to the plate and start embellishing information about how military organizations work. The reason why Saving Private Ryan was so successful as both a movie and a historical narrative was because it was supported by real combat veterans who opened up and told their own stories about what really happened. Maybe the War on Terror will be better told 50 years from now, but it seems that the World War II genre of fiction does a better job of being accurate explicitly because the veterans are willing to speak up about it.

Or because they've had decades to cope with their actions and the war itself.

edited 5th Jan '11 9:33:32 AM by Aprilla

Scrye Since: Jan, 2001
#104: Jan 5th 2011 at 9:33:46 AM

Black Hawk Down was written based off interviews with soldiers and extensive research about the event. Generation Kill, the Rolling Stone articles and book, were written by an embedded reporter who recorded the events as they happened and as he witnessed it, if that makes a difference. The BHD movie was made to capture the chaos of the battle, and th GK miniseries was made to transcribe the book in film form.

There's a lot less awesome battles in Generation Kill, and a lot more caustic humor expressed by Marines during downtime.

"True story, I came when I read Scrye's story, and so did everyone within five miles." —OOZE
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#105: Jan 5th 2011 at 9:56:11 AM

I can understand Barkey's frustration regarding teenagers who have implausible military ranks, but to expound on what I said earlier, look at it this way for video games, comics, and anime. If your characters exist in a world where human beings are walking supercomputers with mental and physical enhancements that drastically reduce the amount of time it takes to become combat effective, I don't think it's fair to totally dismiss such attributes as plausible within the framework of the story while not being possible within the framework of reality. Note that I stress a key difference between plausibility and possibility. A famous writer once said that good fiction doesn't focus on possibility but on believability.

I've never seen Full Metal Panic, but my guess is that military personnel like yourselves don't like partly because the writers didn't do the best job of framing consistent rules for the world they've created. You probably call bullshit on a 16-year-old boy reaching a relatively high rank because his characterization speaks against the methods by which he would do so, which is a fair reaction. I have the same reaction when I see martial arts techniques used in movies. When I see someone using a flying side kick, my reaction is "yeah, that can be done within the bounds of physics, but did the situation tactically call for the use of that technique?". Given the technology, social reconstruction, and genetic enhancements in our possible future, a child could probably have the capabilities of a good infantryman or intelligence officer, but if you set your story up for something like that, you can't just Hand Wave it with "oh, well he just trained really, really hard to rise through the ranks so quickly".

The Metal Gear Solid series actually does a decent job of forming this argument. Snake fights numerous psychologically strained individuals who have had various modifications to make them better soldiers. He also faces many young enemies that can technologically and physically outperform him. However, he keeps beating them one by one because they lacked a certain spirit or mental fortitude that a soldier can only obtain through hard-earned experience. Say what you want about other aspects of the game in terms of accuracy (it is a video game, for Christ's sake, so take it easy), but I think Hideo Kojima was definitely on to something when he established that argument as a two-way street since Snake himself has been trained for combat since his early childhood.

Both military and civilian psychologists have suggested that taking children as soldiers is both mentally detrimental and ineffective in the long term because they have not received the proper nurturing and education needed to fulfill standard battlefield obligations. Most of the men who are represented in Generation Kill and Black Hawk Down were relatively normal Americans and Pakistanis with families, hobbies, and quirks that made them more complete human beings. I suppose the short-hand of this theory is that a good combatant must be gradually introduced to the soldiering process rather than thrown into it. There are plenty of anime teens who are mean little fighters, but have you noticed how many emotional hang-ups these characters tend to have? Emotional hang-ups that interfere with their jobs? Emotional hang-ups that an older and more mature individual probably wouldn't have? I think that might be the gist of Barkey and Scyre's argument here.

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#106: Jan 5th 2011 at 10:00:09 AM

[up]That. post. was. awesome.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Scrye Since: Jan, 2001
#107: Jan 5th 2011 at 10:04:41 AM

I think our point really had to do with "fictions works according to how someone wants something to happen, so it's not reliable, while nonfiction works according to how things did happen".

But your point is good too.

"True story, I came when I read Scrye's story, and so did everyone within five miles." —OOZE
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#108: Jan 5th 2011 at 3:57:27 PM

Black Hawk Down was written based off interviews with soldiers and extensive research about the event. Generation Kill, the Rolling Stone articles and book, were written by an embedded reporter who recorded the events as they happened and as he witnessed it, if that makes a difference. The BHD movie was made to capture the chaos of the battle, and th GK miniseries was made to transcribe the book in film form.

There's a lot less awesome battles in Generation Kill, and a lot more caustic humor expressed by Marines during downtime.

I found Generation Kill to be very realistic, and their sources were excellent. They didn't just have the reporter, Evan Wright, to consult. The guy who played Rudy Reyes was.. The actual Rudy Reyes, the Force Recon Marine who was there himself.

They also had extensive advice and on-set appearances from the actual Brad Colbert and Ray Perkins. Brad and Evan are still good friends and keep in contact.

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#109: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:01:05 PM


This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping.
Stay on topic, please.


'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#110: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:20:03 PM


This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping.
Stay on topic, please.


RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#111: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:24:57 PM


This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping.
Stay on topic, please.


'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#112: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:30:52 PM


This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping.
Stay on topic, please.


RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#113: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:46:56 PM


This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping.
Stay on topic, please.


'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Scrye Since: Jan, 2001
#114: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:08:45 PM

And I'm aware of all the sources Generation Kill had. I pretty much learned everything there was to know about the articles, book, and show.

Barkey, they were not Force Recon. They were a standard reconnaissance unit: a far cry from Special Forces.

{Off-topic stuff deleted —Madrugada}

edited 6th Jan '11 10:33:01 AM by Madrugada

"True story, I came when I read Scrye's story, and so did everyone within five miles." —OOZE
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#115: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:44:46 PM

A question that brings us slightly back to topic: to what degree does an enemy's willingness to use/target children in wartime make them higher priority targets? Like, say you had a larger force of militants in one area that were killing hundreds of adults a month, and a smaller force in another area that was deliberately targeting schools and stuff over sectarian/ethnic differences, which would count as higher priority? The one who does more immediate damage to a larger population or the one who does lasting psychological damage to a smaller population? I'd be interested in the tactical opinions of the military tropers on this matter*.

*(leaving aside, for a moment, the entirely justifiable burning rage that one might feel on the matter. Saying "I'd like to force feed the child killing bastards their own lungs" a) is not a tactical opinion, and b) goes without saying.)

{Off-topic comment deleted —Madrugada}

edited 6th Jan '11 10:33:42 AM by Madrugada

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#116: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:53:05 PM

Do both. Somehow.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
Scrye Since: Jan, 2001
#117: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:54:16 PM

What do you mean by priority? Units don't usually cross AI's too often because of a higher threat.

Also, depends on who's in charge.

"True story, I came when I read Scrye's story, and so did everyone within five miles." —OOZE
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#118: Jan 6th 2011 at 12:24:39 AM

Barkey, they were not Force Recon. They were a standard reconnaissance unit: a far cry from Special Forces.

Err first recon, that's what I meant.

I think that was a kneejerk response to the fact that I've been playing so much new vegas, and my character has a first recon beret.

The decision would be made based on who was doing the most damage, or was the most threat, though both would be dealt with. I could be argued that by fucking up schools, the ones doing that are doing the most lasting damage and need to be dealt with first.

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#119: Jan 6th 2011 at 3:50:16 AM


This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping.
Stay on topic, please.


'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Scrye Since: Jan, 2001
#120: Jan 6th 2011 at 4:27:50 AM


This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping.
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"True story, I came when I read Scrye's story, and so did everyone within five miles." —OOZE
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#121: Jan 6th 2011 at 4:50:37 AM


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'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#122: Jan 6th 2011 at 5:03:17 AM


This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping.
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What's precedent ever done for us?
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#123: Jan 6th 2011 at 6:00:19 AM


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'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Scrye Since: Jan, 2001
#124: Jan 6th 2011 at 6:40:49 AM


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"True story, I came when I read Scrye's story, and so did everyone within five miles." —OOZE
Kino Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Californicating
#125: Jan 6th 2011 at 6:46:26 AM


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