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Why are so many people anti-feminist?

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TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#176: Jan 5th 2011 at 6:32:56 PM

Besides, if Breast Milk is so good, then just invest in Momma's Pride Human Breast Milk.

Baby yourself-with Momma's Pride.

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#177: Jan 5th 2011 at 6:34:57 PM

My take on the motherhood issue:

Our society is immensely hypocritical about it. On the one hand, it is seemed vitally important that women not only bear children but devote the bulk of their time and energy to caring for them. The social pressure on women to put their children first, always, and if that means cutting their own education short or stalling out their careers, well then so be it. Because raising children is vitally important...

...but not so important, apparently, that we as a society should bother compensating women for doing it. A woman who does what she is supposed to, and gives up her career in order to be a full-time mother, is rendered financially dependent. Her joy in her children and her satisfaction in knowing that she is contributing to the next generation of society, are supposed to be all the compensation she needs. And if godforbid she doesn't do this all-important, worthless job exactly right, if her children ever misbehave in public or suffer emotional problems or get bad grades in school, she is castigated. It's all her fault.

No wonder more and more women are going childfree.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#178: Jan 5th 2011 at 6:39:02 PM

Actually, it's my understanding that under common law, women who are involved in upkeep of the family and the hold are considered to have contributed to the value of an estate and that's factored in with such things as divorce-such as once one immediately becomes a doctor.

It's been too long since my last Economic Analysis of Law course though.

Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#179: Jan 5th 2011 at 6:44:20 PM

...but not so important, apparently, that we as a society should bother compensating women for doing it.

Who the heck is going to pay her wages for being a wife and mother? Her husband?

If you say "the state", well, a market economy is in every way superior to a command economy.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#180: Jan 5th 2011 at 6:53:02 PM

^ And in case the last 50 years of welfare moms, Chav families and more isn't evidence enough, the more you reward having children at the state level, the more dependence you breed into society.

I'm not against kids or whatnot but a line has to be drawn at free money from the government just for having a baby.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#181: Jan 5th 2011 at 6:53:07 PM

trollface.jpg

^^Begging the question, obviously, since this is precisely the circumstance under which we're asserting why a non-market system is required.

^Straw man, I guess, since it takes an earlier idea and runs with it. I guess that might be a slipper slope thing though.

edited 5th Jan '11 6:54:05 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#182: Jan 5th 2011 at 8:09:13 PM

It boils down to this: Either a full-time mother is performing a valuable service for society, in which case society should compensate her (as it compensates police officers and road workers), or she is not, in which case there's no sense in pressuring women to do it at the expense of other goals.

Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#183: Jan 5th 2011 at 8:16:06 PM

[up] So a traditional family is permissible but only under socialism?

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#184: Jan 5th 2011 at 9:06:05 PM

Why don't you tell me, Rott? Is full-time motherhood so important that women must be pushed into performing it whether they want to or not, or is it worth so little that they must not expect to be paid for it? The answer may be "neither" but it cannot be "both."

edited 5th Jan '11 9:44:04 PM by Karalora

jewelleddragon Also known as Katz from Pasadena, CA Since: Apr, 2009
Also known as Katz
#185: Jan 5th 2011 at 9:26:21 PM

Of course we do pay people for having children, for the sensible reason that we want to keep the country populated.

Fun game: Name anyone you've known who has deliberately lived off of welfare!

Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Me neither.

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#186: Jan 5th 2011 at 10:10:29 PM

Karalora: Why can't it be both? Cognitive Dissonance is something that humans tend to be really, really good at.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#187: Jan 5th 2011 at 10:34:30 PM

^^ My brother in law works at a welfare office in Seattle. From what he told me during Christmas, he could name 15 or 20 off the top of his head. (also a few people with hilarious names, but I digress)

If you can sub in any other guardian, there is a thing called "daycare" that makes your point moot.

I would not consider this an acceptable substitution for more than an hour or so after school. Daycares are not exactly shining bastions of discipline.

edited 5th Jan '11 10:35:51 PM by Pykrete

fanty Since: Dec, 2009
#188: Jan 6th 2011 at 1:09:16 AM

@ whomever it was: The mother staying at home doesn't necessarily mean that she's looking after children. My mom was a "housewife" for the first 11 years of my life, and I don't remember ever seeing much of her. She was always either washing clothes (no running water -> no washing machine) or weeding the fields or preparing meals. And neither me nor my brother are even remotely dysfunctional. There are millions of children in this world whose mothers are too poor and too busy to have any time for them, you aren't going to say that all those children have psychological problems, are you? Especially since just a few hundred years ago, almost ALL mothers on the planet were too busy looking after livestock and weeding the fields to spend ridiculous amounts of time taking care of their children. The "a parent has to be at home" thing doesn't make any sense, because it would mean that for the most of human history, children have been growing up dysfunctional, and you aren't going to claim that, are you?

edited 6th Jan '11 1:13:42 AM by fanty

JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#189: Jan 6th 2011 at 1:40:17 AM

[up][up] Remind me, why is "discipline" important to a child? Self-discipline is important later on, but that comes secondary to self respect and being able to function with others.

All too oft people seem to think that strictness and petty tyranny make a child more "disciplined", all it did in some of my friends cases was want to make them drink till they can't see.

LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#190: Jan 6th 2011 at 1:49:08 AM

Children do indeed need some sort of discipline. I've met little girls who simply did not take no for an answer. Learning to respect other people is never a bad thing.

It's not so much discipline I would worry about, though - there's a general lack of attention given to children in daycares.

edited 6th Jan '11 1:52:16 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#191: Jan 6th 2011 at 1:50:48 AM

"Discpline" is only really good for getting them to shut up. And just saying "no" does not (in my mind) mean discipline, it just means treating a child normally.

LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#192: Jan 6th 2011 at 1:54:45 AM

[up] I think your definition and my definition of discipline are different. I don't know what Pykrete meant by it, but by discipline I meant being told no occassionally, being taught to respect other children and adults, and doing what you're told.

Be not afraid...
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#193: Jan 6th 2011 at 1:56:50 AM

I agree with all of it bar the last one, if your orders are good they'll learn to listen anyway, if they are not they will be ignored, and rightly so.

LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#194: Jan 6th 2011 at 2:36:44 AM

[up] We're talking about very young children here. They don't know that your orders are in their best interest. Things like "No, Timmy, don't go near the swimming pool when Mum's not here" and "Don't go on the road now" may be ignored with tragic consequences.

Buuuuut that's offtopic.

Be not afraid...
Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#195: Jan 6th 2011 at 7:07:58 AM

@Blue Ninja, it is in fact my point that our entire society is indulging in a form of Cognitive Dissonance by putting women in this double-bind regarding motherhood. It's unjust and needs to stop, one way or the other.

Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#196: Jan 6th 2011 at 8:24:30 AM

This topic actually came up in one of my classes a few years back - did you know that in some European countries, not only is paid parental leave available to both the mother and the father, but it some countries it is a requirement that both parents take at least some time off?

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TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
IanExMachina The Paedofinder General from Gone with the Chickens Since: Jul, 2009
The Paedofinder General
#198: Jan 6th 2011 at 8:45:54 AM

[up][up]

I can say that the UK does some paternity leave, both Maternity and Paternity leave is for 26 weeks paid. You can't as a household claim both at once as far as I can make out.

edited 6th Jan '11 8:46:07 AM by IanExMachina

By the powers invested in me by tabloid-reading imbeciles, I pronounce you guilty of paedophilia!
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#199: Jan 6th 2011 at 12:24:50 PM

I don't know what Pykrete meant by it, but by discipline I meant being told no occassionally, being taught to respect other children and adults, and doing what you're told.

It is. Daycares are a nigh-unmitigated clusterfuck.

Regarding doing what you're told, children are not known for being rational, altruistic, and respectful 100% of the time. You were, you understood safety the first time, you weren't an asshole, great. I knew several too, and the daycare would've been utterly unbearable without their presence. I also knew a lot that were manipulative fucks who perfectly understood such concepts as reciprocal altruism (even if they didn't know the exact words) and saw it as an opportunity to exploit people with impunity. Very little effort was spent to curb this in any way in daycares, and very little could have been anyway just because of how many kids there are compared to how many supervisors, most of whom are too busy trying to keep the less-bright bulbs from eating paste.

Regarding learning self-discipline, this is highly unlikely to occur from a harried daycare supervisor that barely has time to talk to you if he/she even bothers learning your name. While it is certainly possible to pick up on it without a persistent parental figure, one is vastly preferable.

edited 6th Jan '11 12:34:01 PM by Pykrete

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#200: Jan 6th 2011 at 3:06:13 PM

Learning self-discipline when you're 5 is impossible no matter how awesome your parents are.

5 year olds can't even get conservation of matter right yet; no way you can make them mature.


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