I didn't say it had to be the mother, Tomu. This was just my objection to the idea of the mother abandoning the child because she wants to have a career. It's not much better when the father does it.
No, Josef, I will not prove it. I have no reason to do so. I don't care that much if you believe me or not, and so to me, it's a waste of my time to search for a study of this online.
Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.Again, rearing by gay couples (i.e., with no female element whatsoever) has no deleterious psychological effect on a child
.
If you are not willing to back your arguments with evidence, you are giving us no reason to pay any heed whatsoever to them.
edited 5th Jan '11 4:40:35 PM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?I hate it when people reduce "feminism" to only being able to be a legal ideology. Antifeminists, saying that there's no point in anything more legal, and that if it's not a legal movement, it's pointless and not feminism.
Feminism means for equality. And Social movements are powerful just as legal ones. If the legal problems are wrapped up, there nothing wrong with trying to create social change, is there? Human beings tend to want social influence, and a group community interest in gender equality is nothing to find an especially unacceptable community interest, is it?
I consider myself a feminist the same way I consider myself a Transhumanist. It's one of the easiest terms to shortly and most accurately describe the positions I hold on gender. My views on religion have largely been described as Pantheistic. So I consider myself a Pantheist. And my views on have been largely described as feministic, so I consider myself a Feminist. Of course, some of these people are crazy such as Conservapedia when describing my traits, but on the whole, it seems to be one of the best words for my beliefs on gender.
Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]@Tomu: Oh. No, I have no objection to the father giving up his career instead. Sorry for being unclear.
@Josef: Are you joking? You honestly demand proof from me that parental abandonment is bad for a child? Look, I'm happy for you if you were abandoned and that worked out fine, but seriously? You can't believe the statistics would look good for parental abandonment.
Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.No, I would like you to provide proof that a child being left in capable hands (say grandparent or other gaurdian) that is not a parent would affect a child negativly. And you were not saying that a few pages back, you were saying it should be a woman, or at the very least that someone should give up their job and liveleyhood to look after the child.
At least I think so, your point seems to alter a lot.
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I don't think so. Where did I say it was bad to have another guardian? I said it was bad to be abandoned by a parent, specifically the mother, but the father's bad too.
edited 5th Jan '11 5:02:03 PM by Ultrayellow
Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.Maybe, but by then the parents may have been able to retire, or can at least provide (if not guidence) then some manner of aid for their offspring.
It was implied through absence. Also your remark about how "Idon't have to proove anything" came across as arrogant.
edited 5th Jan '11 5:08:00 PM by JosefBugman
Ultrayellow: Your argument is jumping all over the place. For instance, in post 117
, you said that feminists shouldn't try to fix the problem of women doing so much more child-rearing than men because it's just biology. But in post 148
, you said that it was a bad thing (and sexist and social, rather than biological/psychological).
You've also been interchangeably talking about women doing less child-rearing (ie, taking the traditionally "male" role) and women "abandoning" their children. Unless you want to suggest that all fathers in traditionally-structured families are abandoning their children, you'd better leave that word alone.
Finally, if you don't care whether we believe you, why are you talking to us?
If you can sub in any other guardian, there is a thing called "daycare" that makes your point moot.
Therefore you must have been arguing it was the parents (in fact you seemed to be arguing it was at least the mother), or else it would not have had the implication that someone would have to give up their job to raise the child.
@Jewel? I'm going with Jewel: Yep. This is what I meant when I said I was unclear before. All right, I'll try to make my point clearer.
After birth, it's important for the woman to help raise the child for at least the next few months. That's what I meant when I said biology.
What I meant about abandonment was that I object to both parents attempting to have a career, and neglecting their child. It doesn't matter to me which parent has the career after the first few months. But neither of them raising the child, in my book, means they shouldn't have had one in the first place.
If I don't care about convincing you, why am I here? Because it's cathartic for me to argue.
I don't expect to change anyone's views.
Ultrayellow seems to believe that the "abandonment postulate" is a truism. Jewel and Josef and Tomu think that it's not a truism. Can anybody here effectively argue with truisms?
edited 5th Jan '11 5:37:08 PM by Grain
Anime geemu wo shinasai!Why exactly is it important for the woman to raise the child? The woman certainly needs to recover from the ordeal of birth, and as thus should take maternity leave, but breast milk isn't somehow magically superior to other nourishment.
Still, it probably does foster a positive relationship if parents take time off in the early days of their children's youth to spend time with them. But once again: this has nothing to do with biology and everything to do with psychosocial development.
Ah, stay at home Dads are wonderful.<3
edited 5th Jan '11 5:37:53 PM by Ukonkivi
Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

I sometimes wish my mother hadn't spent as much time with me, I pissed her off