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Why are so many people anti-feminist?

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JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#151: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:26:35 PM

I sometimes wish my mother hadn't spent as much time with me, I pissed her off tongue

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#152: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:30:27 PM

I'm sorry about that, Tomu. But anyway, I'm not saying it's an on/off switch. I'm only saying, on average, it's marginally better for a child if their mother spends time with them.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#153: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:32:06 PM

Proove it. It's your statement and you have to demonstrate the proof of your idea.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#154: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:33:06 PM

It's undeniably true that a child is best off if A person who is a persistent figure in their lives spends time with them during development. It does not have to be the mother.

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#155: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:38:10 PM

I didn't say it had to be the mother, Tomu. This was just my objection to the idea of the mother abandoning the child because she wants to have a career. It's not much better when the father does it.

No, Josef, I will not prove it. I have no reason to do so. I don't care that much if you believe me or not, and so to me, it's a waste of my time to search for a study of this online.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#156: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:39:00 PM

Again, rearing by gay couples (i.e., with no female element whatsoever) has no deleterious psychological effect on a child.

If you are not willing to back your arguments with evidence, you are giving us no reason to pay any heed whatsoever to them.

edited 5th Jan '11 4:40:35 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#157: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:39:30 PM

I think you misunderstood how people were objecting to your position. The way you were saying it, it sounded like you insisted that it has to be the mother who gives up their job, rather than the father.

JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#158: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:41:48 PM

So what, your happy to come in, state a point with little to no evidence and then say "I don't have to provide evidence for this because its the internet"?

Don't you wonder why I am asking you this, why I might wonder why you are asking this? Why you yourself might even think this way?

Ukonkivi Over 10,000 dead.:< Since: Aug, 2009
Over 10,000 dead.:<
#159: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:45:47 PM

I hate it when people reduce "feminism" to only being able to be a legal ideology. Antifeminists, saying that there's no point in anything more legal, and that if it's not a legal movement, it's pointless and not feminism.

Feminism means for equality. And Social movements are powerful just as legal ones. If the legal problems are wrapped up, there nothing wrong with trying to create social change, is there? Human beings tend to want social influence, and a group community interest in gender equality is nothing to find an especially unacceptable community interest, is it?

I consider myself a feminist the same way I consider myself a Transhumanist. It's one of the easiest terms to shortly and most accurately describe the positions I hold on gender. My views on religion have largely been described as Pantheistic. So I consider myself a Pantheist. And my views on have been largely described as feministic, so I consider myself a Feminist. Of course, some of these people are crazy such as Conservapedia when describing my traits, but on the whole, it seems to be one of the best words for my beliefs on gender.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#160: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:51:47 PM

@Tomu: Oh. No, I have no objection to the father giving up his career instead. Sorry for being unclear.

@Josef: Are you joking? You honestly demand proof from me that parental abandonment is bad for a child? Look, I'm happy for you if you were abandoned and that worked out fine, but seriously? You can't believe the statistics would look good for parental abandonment.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#161: Jan 5th 2011 at 4:55:54 PM

No, I would like you to provide proof that a child being left in capable hands (say grandparent or other gaurdian) that is not a parent would affect a child negativly. And you were not saying that a few pages back, you were saying it should be a woman, or at the very least that someone should give up their job and liveleyhood to look after the child.

At least I think so, your point seems to alter a lot.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#162: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:00:16 PM

I imagine it's only a problem if the grandparents raise the child in developmental years and then become distant.

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#163: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:01:01 PM

[up][up]I don't think so. Where did I say it was bad to have another guardian? I said it was bad to be abandoned by a parent, specifically the mother, but the father's bad too.

edited 5th Jan '11 5:02:03 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#164: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:01:33 PM

Maybe, but by then the parents may have been able to retire, or can at least provide (if not guidence) then some manner of aid for their offspring.

It was implied through absence. Also your remark about how "Idon't have to proove anything" came across as arrogant.

edited 5th Jan '11 5:08:00 PM by JosefBugman

jewelleddragon Also known as Katz from Pasadena, CA Since: Apr, 2009
Also known as Katz
#165: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:06:53 PM

Ultrayellow: Your argument is jumping all over the place. For instance, in post 117, you said that feminists shouldn't try to fix the problem of women doing so much more child-rearing than men because it's just biology. But in post 148, you said that it was a bad thing (and sexist and social, rather than biological/psychological).

You've also been interchangeably talking about women doing less child-rearing (ie, taking the traditionally "male" role) and women "abandoning" their children. Unless you want to suggest that all fathers in traditionally-structured families are abandoning their children, you'd better leave that word alone.

Finally, if you don't care whether we believe you, why are you talking to us?

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#166: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:07:33 PM

If you can sub in any other guardian, there is a thing called "daycare" that makes your point moot.

Therefore you must have been arguing it was the parents (in fact you seemed to be arguing it was at least the mother), or else it would not have had the implication that someone would have to give up their job to raise the child.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#167: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:08:34 PM

There are two problems with daycare.

1.) Less focus of attention per child.

2.) The person who is there in formative years is not persistent in the child's life over their entire development.

These are significant factors, though not really morbidly awful even when taken together.

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#168: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:22:26 PM

@Jewel? I'm going with Jewel: Yep. This is what I meant when I said I was unclear before. All right, I'll try to make my point clearer.

After birth, it's important for the woman to help raise the child for at least the next few months. That's what I meant when I said biology.

What I meant about abandonment was that I object to both parents attempting to have a career, and neglecting their child. It doesn't matter to me which parent has the career after the first few months. But neither of them raising the child, in my book, means they shouldn't have had one in the first place.

If I don't care about convincing you, why am I here? Because it's cathartic for me to argue.grin I don't expect to change anyone's views.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Grain Only One Avatar from South Northwest Earth Since: Oct, 2009
Only One Avatar
#169: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:27:01 PM

Ultrayellow seems to believe that the "abandonment postulate" is a truism. Jewel and Josef and Tomu think that it's not a truism. Can anybody here effectively argue with truisms?

edited 5th Jan '11 5:37:08 PM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#170: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:35:01 PM

[up][up] See, what makes the system unfair is that the parent who gives up their career is usually the woman. It would be more egalitarian if stay at home dads were just as common as stay at home mums.

Be not afraid...
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#171: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:35:42 PM

Why exactly is it important for the woman to raise the child? The woman certainly needs to recover from the ordeal of birth, and as thus should take maternity leave, but breast milk isn't somehow magically superior to other nourishment.

Still, it probably does foster a positive relationship if parents take time off in the early days of their children's youth to spend time with them. But once again: this has nothing to do with biology and everything to do with psychosocial development.

Ukonkivi Over 10,000 dead.:< Since: Aug, 2009
Over 10,000 dead.:<
#172: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:37:38 PM

Ah, stay at home Dads are wonderful.<3

edited 5th Jan '11 5:37:53 PM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#173: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:42:14 PM

[up][up] There are some things that suggest that breast milk is superior to formula; even if it isn't, I think the psychological benefits of nursing might be substantial too. That's not really the point of this argument, though.

Be not afraid...
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#174: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:42:30 PM

Mine was pretty badass! Though, it would have been nice if he hadn't lost all his money in the stock market, and had kept working for Compuware... oh well.

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#175: Jan 5th 2011 at 5:46:12 PM

[up][up]No it's not, which is why I'm sorry I brought it up. I appear to have muddied the waters.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

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