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Why are so many people anti-feminist?

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Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#101: Jan 3rd 2011 at 6:42:38 PM

@Leigh: There are actually sectors of academic feminism that deal with female-oriented power structures. For example, there is an ongoing debate as to whether or not the domestic domain is a center of female dominance or a domain of subservience to the family as a whole. Obviously, cultural relativism is going to play a part in this debate. All joking set aside, the adult film industry is actually an excellent example of how females both gain power and lose it in varying aspects.

There are interesting arguments about the source of female self-sufficiency in porn. Does the power come from the audience, who are predominantly male yet increasingly female? Or does it come from the performers themselves, who make a conscious and voluntary effort to sexually express themselves for money? Or does it come from the directors and producers (again, an increasing number of females holding these positions). For all her quirks, Jenna Jameson actually talked about both sides of this issue in a very enlightening manner, especially since she has established herself as a competent businesswoman. The interview was on some documentary I saw not too long ago, but I can't remember the title.

edited 3rd Jan '11 6:43:19 PM by Aprilla

JackMackerel from SOME OBSCURE MEDIA Since: Jul, 2010
#102: Jan 3rd 2011 at 7:26:45 PM

Original Post: Not to mention stereotypes of feminists being misandrists and seperatists are rampant, and aren't helped any by them being extremely loud and vocal about it.

Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.
LeighSabio Mate Griffon To Mare from Love party! Since: Jan, 2001
Mate Griffon To Mare
#103: Jan 3rd 2011 at 8:14:34 PM

@ Aprilla: Where do you personally study gendered issues? Because your experiences with feminism are very different from mine. In my experience, most feminist works, blogs, etc. seem to come from a standpoint of believing that there's a pervasive bias in society/power structures in favor of males. After all, isn't that what they mean by "patriarchy?"

Though I guess you could start by treating whores better too-

This. I've often wondered why some people who'd never be rude to the waitress would be willing to be rude to a prostitute or a stripper of whom they are the client.

"All pain is a punishment, and every punishment is inflicted for love as much as for justice." — Joseph De Maistre.
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104: Jan 3rd 2011 at 8:23:07 PM

[up]Oh no, that's not what I meant. The professors I've worked with have argued about what you just said up and down. One writer recently mentioned an issue she calls "artificial patriarchy", and what she is arguing is that patriarchal values no longer go through a natural cycle of social reinforcement. She goes on to suggest that feminism, in all its effort, has inadvertently reignited male antagonism that has in turn led to a resurgence of male-dominated social dynamics, namely the "frat boy" mentality. Her theory is basically a sort of Nice Job Breaking It, Hero! take on contemporary feminism, and while I don't entirely agree with her premise, it was a good read. I'll try to find the document if I can.

By the way, I'm sure you know this, but I'd judge feminism blogs with a grain of salt just like any other ideology-based digital literature. One of the reasons why I try to stick with academic feminism is because it's much more likely to be peer-reviewed. Thea article I mentioned to you earlier is actually creating a tug-of-war at the university where she wrote it (UCLA I think), which is a good sign that other feminists aren't just a bunch of yes people who clap like seals every time someone writes an essay about gender relations. This has already been pointed out, but the most extreme feminists get the most attention, and as far as I'm concerned, many misandrists and borderline female supremacists use the conventional feminism banner as a vehicle to taint what is otherwise a fairly reasonable philosophy.

To answer your question, I study in Arkansas. Not exactly Harvard down here, but certainly not as po-dunk as everyone makes us out to be.

edited 3rd Jan '11 8:28:47 PM by Aprilla

LeighSabio Mate Griffon To Mare from Love party! Since: Jan, 2001
Mate Griffon To Mare
#105: Jan 3rd 2011 at 8:28:39 PM

[up] Was that Christina Hoff Sommers, by any chance?

edited 3rd Jan '11 8:29:06 PM by LeighSabio

"All pain is a punishment, and every punishment is inflicted for love as much as for justice." — Joseph De Maistre.
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#106: Jan 3rd 2011 at 8:29:55 PM

No, I think it was Julia Cruz. She teaches sociology in Los Angeles, last time I checked.

CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#107: Jan 4th 2011 at 11:32:54 AM

I think the problem is that feminism as a term is so poorly defined that it's difficult to pinpoint what it means to society. This ends up with a lot of people flanderizing it into its most extreme ideologies. As a corollary, people who disagree with various feminist ideas, often just strawman their arguments based on that.

and that's how Equestria was made!
Nika-senpai The Golden Girl from Mitakihara Since: Nov, 2009
The Golden Girl
#109: Jan 4th 2011 at 3:36:49 PM

I have identified myself as a feminist for the longest time. Until one day, when I made a comment about this to my husband, and he said, "No, please don't say that! People will get the wrong impression of you." Because it seems that many people are confusing feminist with feminazi, (once again the Vocal Minority example) and even then, it's already not a good term to describe the goals of feminism.

In the past, there was a huge disparity between the rights of men and women. The term feminist, as someone who stands for for improving women's rights, was pretty spot on then. We're not perfect as a society, and worldwide, even less so, but things are better today than they were before. Laws have been changes, it's people attitudes that need changing now. Except the problem is that society sometimes has pretty rigid expectations of people in terms of gender roles, which is problematic all genders. And the term feminist doesn't really adequately describe that anymore, because at this point, it's not exclusively about women, it's about equality for everyone. The movement shifted focus, the name didn't change though - and then it's no surprise that people are misunderstanding it - even people who identify as feminists themselves.

For now, I guess I'll just call myself an egalitarian or something. tongue

Either, I suspect one great reason for why people may express anti-feminist views might be the above. They just picture the extremes and want nothing to do with it. I suspect that if you asked them if they're for gender equality, they would completely agree.

Shine
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#110: Jan 4th 2011 at 4:08:17 PM

I don't like people who hold feminist beliefs but refuse to identify as feminist. Sure, it maybe wasn't the best name, but the fact remains that it is the name of this movement and if we do not even have to will to defend the word "feminism" itself we are handing its opponents the most powerful weapon possible. Who would want to join a movement whose very name is a slur? Clearly very few people, judging by this thread.

This is not to say, again, that the feminist movement has not done some stupid things, or even that "feminism" is a particularly good name; only if the vast majority of feminists are not willing to defend the mere word "feminism" they are doomed to fail as a movement.

(Already happened to "liberal", at least till we managed to pick up "progressive" again. But now they're running that through the mud too, and we do not look any more willing to defend it then we were "liberal".)

saladofstones :V from Happy Place Since: Jan, 2011
:V
#111: Jan 4th 2011 at 4:10:34 PM

I don't have the problem with the term progressive, even though its loaded to make a counterpoint against seem you know, backwards, but I have a problem with most of the people involved with around the term.

Well he's talking about WWII when the Chinese bomb pearl harbor and they commuted suicide by running their planes into the ship.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#112: Jan 4th 2011 at 4:15:15 PM

My problem with it is mainly that it's an admission that we will never be able to take back "liberal". Perfectly good word got ruined because an entire half of the political spectrum didn't have the balls  *

to defend the friggin' name of their movement.

saladofstones :V from Happy Place Since: Jan, 2011
:V
#113: Jan 4th 2011 at 4:16:49 PM

Why would you move from an unpopular term to one that is even more likely to cause issues?

Well he's talking about WWII when the Chinese bomb pearl harbor and they commuted suicide by running their planes into the ship.
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#114: Jan 4th 2011 at 4:23:52 PM

I'm all for gender equality. Not gender homogenuity, since there are always going to be differences between men and women, but equality's something I am completely in favor of.

What's wrong with ditching the name "feminism"? It's outdated, and doesn't illustrate what most or at least many feminists seem to believe.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Erock Proud Canadian from Toronto Since: Jul, 2009
Proud Canadian
#115: Jan 4th 2011 at 4:30:28 PM

@Black humour: Yes, I did see that. You just proved your own point: should women really get paid more per hour because they have other stuff to do? Abosolutely not.

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.
CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#116: Jan 4th 2011 at 4:39:48 PM

Men still have disproportionately high amount of power in our society. More often than not men have the most powerful positions within media, business, politics, and religion. So in terms of achieving gender equality, women still have the most to gain.

@ Erock - The biggest issue I see with that is how we typically devalue work that become part of the distaff sphere of influence. There are also many mechanisms in society that discourage women from pursuing their careers. For instance, when a couple has a child together, it's expected that the woman will be the one to sacrifice her career for the child.

and that's how Equestria was made!
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#117: Jan 4th 2011 at 4:55:22 PM

This is where we run into gender equality versus gender homogenuity. First off, the woman's gonna have to stop working for a few months to give birth anyway. Secondly, the child is unlikely to turn out as well if the woman does not spend at least some time raising it, at least during the breastfeeding stage. I'm sorry, but that's biology and psychology, not society.

But that doesn't mean the man and woman aren't equal. All of this is still the woman's choice.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
saladofstones :V from Happy Place Since: Jan, 2011
:V
#118: Jan 4th 2011 at 4:58:27 PM

Having both parents out working and the lack of supervision, by any party, has caused a lot of problems.

I don't even mean this to be anti-feminist.

Well he's talking about WWII when the Chinese bomb pearl harbor and they commuted suicide by running their planes into the ship.
mahel042 State-sponsored username from Stockholm,Sweden Since: Dec, 2009
State-sponsored username
#119: Jan 4th 2011 at 4:58:58 PM

I read in the newspapers about a year ago about a survey that showed that womens wages and stuff like that was actually worse on average when having a female boss compred to a male one but unfortunately I can't remember much about it, I belive someone theorised that it was because they saw them as competitors to keep down or something. I really wish I could remember whre I read that.

In the quiet of the night, the Neocount of Merentha mused: How long does evolution take, among the damned?
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#120: Jan 4th 2011 at 5:05:10 PM

[up][up][up] See, I think that is unfair. Men can have it all, a child and a job. Women have to pick one. And because reproduction is such an important thing to people, it makes sense that lots of them are going to pick children. Is that fair?

I'm not denying that women are probably more necessary in the early months for breastfeeding. But after that, why should women have to do the lion's share of the work?

Be not afraid...
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#121: Jan 4th 2011 at 5:06:13 PM

It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it?

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#122: Jan 4th 2011 at 5:08:47 PM

It's also worth considering the social dynamics that affect professional development between men and women. Women have greater social mobility but less social authority. Likewise, men have more social authority but less social mobility. There are exceptions to this structure, but it's a structure that still acts as a dominant force of gender-based power exchange.

To clarify the above, a woman can wear pants or a skirt with little protest. A man can wear pants, but if he wears a skirt, he may meet social opposition. In the reverse, a woman in a leadership role attracts more attention - frequently but not always negative or at least suspicious - than a man who more typically achieves a leadership role without so much as a raised eyebrow.

Another example: a man can be a nurse or a doctor, but he will be teased for being a nurse. This still happens even now. Likewise, a woman can be a nurse or a doctor, but social cues communicated either consciously or subconsciously will suggest that she be a nurse. Look at the male-to-female ratio of doctors and nurses, or better yet, look at the professional population sets of female NASCAR drivers compared to those of male wedding planners.

And please remember that I already said there are exceptions to this social structure, so I'd appreciate a lack of "well, what about such and such" arguments. It should go without saying that I'm speaking in fairly broad terms and I'd rather not stay up all night nitpicking every single professional field with varying gender roles. You get my point.

CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#123: Jan 4th 2011 at 5:16:39 PM

@ Ultrayellow - That thinking would seem to imply that gay male parents are significantly worse than other parents but research show's that statement to be false. Besides, it's not like breastfeeding by itself is a full time job.

and that's how Equestria was made!
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#124: Jan 4th 2011 at 5:18:12 PM

@Loni: I know that's unfair. But as I said above, it's biology and psychology, not society. There's not a lot feminism can or should do about it. But there's no reason for the woman to have to do the lion's share of the work.

Drat. I'm on a cell phone, Banana. Can you just tell me what the research says? I don't want to download.

edited 5th Jan '11 5:08:10 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#125: Jan 4th 2011 at 5:26:48 PM

The gist of it is that gay and lesbian parents are as fit to raise children as your typical heterosexual couple.

and that's how Equestria was made!

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