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How can a Christian and a neo-pagan coexist as mates?

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JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#101: Dec 30th 2010 at 3:36:39 AM

Proove it. I have heard a lot that are respect for other people, but considering how much humility and other attributes are stressed I doubt that self respect or confidence is in any way a part of religion.

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#102: Dec 30th 2010 at 3:41:19 AM

You've found a sure-fire, 99.95% successful, completely scientific way to make friends with someone? To make someone fall in love with you?

I may not have found such a thing, mostly because there is a lot of variation between individuals and what will gain me the friendship of one will give me the indifference or even enmity of another. Also, I endorse loving each other, I do not endorse falling-in-love, that's just not healthy tongue

Nevertheless, there is a rather reliable art to seducing a certain demographic of women, which produces results consistently. However, that art will only get you laid, because it relies on you maintaining the illusion of having the traits a woman finds attractive, not on actually having those traits, not on you also having the right traits to successfully have a long term relationship. In fact, both things (short-term and long-term attractiveness) are quite hard to reconcile. However, the main thing about being lovable is being awesome: in World Of Darkness terms, you must have high stats at everything, especially resources, presence, composure, resolve, wits and manipulation. Basically, if you want to get lovers and friends easily, you must be a high-level character: you'll only get lots of friends and lovers if you don't actually need them. Otherwise, you must rely on such things as common interests, common goals, complimentary personal characteristics...

edited 30th Dec '10 3:43:02 AM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Taelor Don't Forget To Smile from The Paths of Spite Since: Jul, 2009
Don't Forget To Smile
#103: Dec 30th 2010 at 3:50:05 AM

If millions of people are dying in wars and famines, I would much rather believe that there is something out there trying to help them, and inspiring their fellow humans to help them, and that everything will eventually turn out OK, rather than 'they die because that's just the way things are and there's nothing we can do about it.
What makes you feel good and what actually exists are completely unrelated. Wanting something to be true doesn't make it so.

The Philosopher-King Paradox
Ukonkivi Over 10,000 dead.:< Since: Aug, 2009
Over 10,000 dead.:<
#104: Dec 30th 2010 at 4:04:28 AM

You can be a humanist and still be spiritual. Or at least I think so. And you definitely don't have to believe in original sin to be spiritual.

edited 30th Dec '10 4:12:34 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#105: Dec 30th 2010 at 4:04:30 AM

[up]X4 How about the idea that all mankind is made in God's image?

Most of the reasons people give these days that sleeping around isn't good is a self-respect thing.

And I personally find the idea that someone out there loves me unconditionally to be good for self-esteem.

[up][up][up] I'm talking about love, not lust. There may indeed be a scientific way to get women to sleep with you, but there isn't a way to get them to love you.

However, the main thing about being lovable is being awesome: in World Of Darkness terms, you must have high stats at everything, especially resources, presence, composure, resolve, wits and manipulation.

That is... a horrible way of looking at things. There must be more to human relationships than that.

[up][up] Let's not get into an argument over whether God exists.

And besides, the issue I was addressing was Raw Power's claim that religion was a horrible constricting thing that was making me miserable and I would be much better off without it.

(edited for numbering)

edited 30th Dec '10 4:05:54 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#106: Dec 30th 2010 at 4:07:38 AM

There must be more to human relationships than that.

What if there isn't? People will only like you if you are likable, and will only do what you tell them if you are persuasive, and will rely on you if you prove to be reliable, and so on...

edited 30th Dec '10 4:08:55 AM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#107: Dec 30th 2010 at 4:09:49 AM

Why "must" there be? Those things are all good attributes to possess (bar possibly manipulation), and they are all considered attractive, what more do you want to have a relationship?

But God doesn't love you unconditionally, there are countless conditions you need to fullfill in order to be "loved" by him. Sorry to probe, but I am just wondering.

edited 30th Dec '10 4:16:19 AM by JosefBugman

Ukonkivi Over 10,000 dead.:< Since: Aug, 2009
Over 10,000 dead.:<
#108: Dec 30th 2010 at 4:12:42 AM

As fictional characters, that is my Alternate Character Interpretation of them.
So, you're pushing your Alternate Character Interpretation on others of kind deities and cruel beings. Considering this includes people's families, you're . You know, you're allowed to think that me and everyone I love are disgusting people in your " Alternate Character Interpretation ", but I cannot say I condone you trying push this viewpoint on others. Dead loved ones are included in my worship.

You do understand, by the way, that when you alter all of religion and spirituality into a Maltheist fashion, you also include people's dead friends and families, and the Universe itself, right?

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#109: Dec 30th 2010 at 4:16:12 AM

That's all you think there is to love and friendship? Maxing out your stats? Human relationships are purely selfish 'how good are you at X Y Z?' affairs?

... geez. You guys are cold. I think I'm quitting this argument.

Be not afraid...
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#110: Dec 30th 2010 at 4:20:21 AM

[up] x 6: I think that was directed at me. I'm not spiritual but I don't look down on those that are. I actually quite like some pagan ideas but I don't believe in them.

edited 30th Dec '10 4:22:41 AM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#111: Dec 30th 2010 at 4:20:33 AM

Oh come on, its more that those things are usually nice things to have and make you more attractive, being "nice and good" have their place in friendships and make them more important, but quite a lot of human relationships are based around just knowing what people can do and if they can do more then thats good for the both of you.

Its not cold if its accurate.

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#112: Dec 30th 2010 at 4:26:12 AM

[up][up][up] Hm? What's being realistic have to do with being cold? In fact, being warm and welcoming and kind and forgiving will net you friends and lovers, if done properly (being Stupid Good will only attract leeches and manipulators, people who will see you as easy prey and exploit you to the last drop).

[up][up][up][up]I honestly sincerely don't know what you mean at all. What's my personally finding gods aesthetically repulsive have anything to do with the universe, or, for that matter, your loved ones?

BTW:

Don't you think John Cleese somewhat resembles Bruce Campbell? Anyway, I don't agree with the aesop of this song. I don't think one should feel insiginificant, but a sense of relativity is healthy, and one of awe at the beauty and sheer size of the universe is only natural, and there is no need for the supernatural to suscitate it.

[up]

edited 30th Dec '10 4:28:04 AM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#113: Dec 30th 2010 at 4:38:14 AM

Getting back to our original argument, which was whether or not religion is a positive influence in people's lives - it would not make me feel liberated and happy to think like you do. It would make me miserable.

That's pretty much all I have to say.

edited 30th Dec '10 5:05:28 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
Ukonkivi Over 10,000 dead.:< Since: Aug, 2009
Over 10,000 dead.:<
#114: Dec 30th 2010 at 4:45:34 AM

What's my personally finding gods aesthetically repulsive have anything to do with the universe, or, for that matter, your loved ones?
You said you found all forms of God or gods repulsive. You've been arguing that the entire thread. And that others should follow suit and become Atheists.

Pantheism is a form of believing in God. And as is Ancestor Worship. One religious and spiritual concept, and that is essentially comparable to believing in a god in many animistic interpretations, is the worship of the dead. Dead humans, animals, so forth. So to say "all Gods/gods" are disgusting, is to essentially be able to call the impersonal universe disgusting, or the deceased.

Part of my "worshiping God/gods", is me worshiping dead loved ones. So if "all Gods/gods" are to be called disgusting, then so are my dead family and friends.

That's because those make no sense at all in the first place, and were easy to discard.
Now, as I said before, I'm not going to try to defend Pantheism from Atheism to you. However, I am curious as to what you mean here.

Are you saying you haven't read about things such as Pantheism, Deism, Panentheism, Animism, Buddhism, and the like, because they make less sense to you than Christianity, Islam, and Judaism? Because, I find that highly odd from a self professed Atheist.

Furthermore, most explanations of these religions, or religious/philosophical positions, are fairly clear enough. Easy enough that it shouldn't take long to have a basic understanding of them, without dismissing. And if one is not able to make sense of them, I don't think that's something of the religion so much as the reader. It's not always the fault of an explanation of a concept, or a concept itself, that a reading might not always understand it. Either way, it seems like a hastily abandoning of a research before understanding, an labeling it as "nonsensical".

And if you're an Atheist, certainly you don't think religion makes sense. It's odd to nitpick and say you didn't fully research Deism and Pantheism the way you did Christianity, because it "didn't make sense".

And if you are saying you did quickly research and understand the concepts, and "discarded" the idea, that's not exactly a rebuttal to what I'm saying. I'm saying that those things contain things clearly contrary to what you're claiming of religion, that's why I brought them up.

edited 30th Dec '10 4:58:14 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#115: Dec 30th 2010 at 4:53:48 AM

[up][up]You won't know until you try it.

[up] I told you I read about all forms of spirituality. Making your loved ones tutelary gods is not only unfair, but also absurd. Why deny them their rest, and hiw do you expect them to affect the real world?

edited 30th Dec '10 4:59:52 AM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Ukonkivi Over 10,000 dead.:< Since: Aug, 2009
Over 10,000 dead.:<
#116: Dec 30th 2010 at 4:59:31 AM

You won't know until you try it.
That's not true. There's a logical fallacy for that, but I've forgotten it's name, sadly.

Also, I was a complete Atheist for two years of my life. I was also completely depressed. Going without spirituality for two years and fairly firmly believing in nothing spiritual, felt desolate. The universe that I wanted to embrace me, felt cold and dead.

edited 30th Dec '10 5:01:18 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#117: Dec 30th 2010 at 5:01:07 AM

[up]Really? How so?

edited 30th Dec '10 5:01:35 AM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#118: Dec 30th 2010 at 5:02:42 AM

How do you know your family and friends are Gods? Unless you actually got proof that they were promoted in the celestial bureacracy then all they are are the virtuous dead, quite different from Gods. From Raw and mine point of view all that you are worshipping in this case aren't Gods but just wanting the dead to be back, there is a difference.

The problem with simple explanations is that they are too far open to being disprooved, for instance if you were to say that "thor causes thunder" that is easily disprooved whereas "God cannot act because of free will" is harder to disproove.

Ukonkivi Over 10,000 dead.:< Since: Aug, 2009
Over 10,000 dead.:<
#119: Dec 30th 2010 at 5:03:27 AM

I'm not interesting in going into details of my terrible, depressing experiences with Atheism right now. And the mental breakdown that brought it on.

I want you to respond to the post I talked about dealing with Animism and Pantheism just moments ago.

How do you know your family and friends are Gods?
I never said I was going to defend my beliefs from Atheism in terms of "are you sure god is real?", because I already have enough on my hands trying to defend the idea that all conceptions of God are cruel and therefor people shouldn't follow them.

The Animistic and Pantheist concept of "God" and "gods" are a lot more variant. First of all, they're not "Gods" to me, they're a part of God. And they're not "gods", they're lesser spirits. And sizes of spirits are like a sliding scale. Some "pathetic spirits" on one end, while great gods on the other. And "God" is made up of all.

Tell me, how do you think worshiping at Yasukuni works? They are not viewed necessarily as literal "kami", but the concept of "god" or "kami" is a wavering thing. They would be considered normal enough spirits, but also around the classification of kami. Weaker than Amaterasu, but as the dead, able to be worshiped nontheless.

edited 30th Dec '10 5:10:47 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#120: Dec 30th 2010 at 5:10:06 AM

I told you I read about all forms of spirituality. Animism and pantheism, to the best of my knowlege, are vague, ill-defined, and offer zero predictive power about the real world. While aesthetically they may be more pleasing because we make them so (I love how they deliberately and knowingly make their own gods in Voodoo), it doesn't mean they are closer to the truth than other spiritualities. And the only thing I care about is the truth.

Tell me, how do you think worshiping at Yasukuni works?

I think it doesn't. BTW, have you read Promethea?

edited 30th Dec '10 5:12:52 AM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#121: Dec 30th 2010 at 5:12:13 AM

I don't find the universe dead and cold, quite the contrary. I want humanity to be in a place to truly appreciate the wonders of the universe. Of all religious beliefs, I think I like pantheism the best.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
Ukonkivi Over 10,000 dead.:< Since: Aug, 2009
Over 10,000 dead.:<
#122: Dec 30th 2010 at 5:13:09 AM

They're defined well enough, there's simply minor controversies. They mean several things, but there are good consistencies. And a perhaps less "ill defined" than "what is a Christian?".

Like I said, I'm not going to try to defend things like Pantheism from Atheism in terms of skepticism. I'm going against your claims about all conceptions of god being cruel. If you want to retract that statement, that is of course obviously fine.

I think it doesn't. BTW, have you read Promethea?
You sure do seem to like Completely Missing The Point on purpose.

edited 30th Dec '10 5:14:23 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#123: Dec 30th 2010 at 5:13:11 AM

So what basis do you have for this belief? Do you have any proof of it? Do they speak to you, or do you burn incense for them? I mean, what is your proof, where is your doctrine, where do your ideas come from?

Other than appeals to emotion I don't have that much to go on here.

Ukonkivi Over 10,000 dead.:< Since: Aug, 2009
Over 10,000 dead.:<
#124: Dec 30th 2010 at 5:15:14 AM

I'm sorry, that's not something for this thread or argument.

Maybe I will discuss that again when I am through with this "God is cruel, amoral, and disgusting" argument.

And please, I have said this many times in the thread. Can we please move on from it for now?

edited 30th Dec '10 5:16:52 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#125: Dec 30th 2010 at 5:18:58 AM

But if we have no way in which to know what your arguements are coming from how in the hell are we supposed to argue against your conception of it. For the most part all you are doing is saying "He's not evil, but I don't need to justify it". Asking us to justify how He is evil when you are not giving us your complete conception of God and the basis for that is just weird.

And sure, but its just weird that you are unwilling to discuss something but expecting everyone else to discuss stuff about our religious views.

edited 30th Dec '10 5:22:20 AM by JosefBugman


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