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How can a Christian and a neo-pagan coexist as mates?

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LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#76: Dec 29th 2010 at 10:13:24 PM

[up] I think you're mistaken; the Catholic version of God (or at least my particular brand of catholicism anyway) isn't like that at all. But I can see how you might think that he is.

Be not afraid...
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#77: Dec 29th 2010 at 10:28:09 PM

Re: OP -

Whether or not you can co-exist as mates depends somewhat on your personalities, how "core" your beliefs are, and how much you can both compromise or agree-to-disagree. Personally, I've don't recommend the agree-to-disagree route, I've seen numerous couples break up/divorce because they couldn't keep that up. Then again, I'm an atheist, and my wife is Mormon, and we're almost to our ten year anniversary.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#78: Dec 29th 2010 at 10:58:39 PM

[up][up] What do you expect? It's freaking Satan: misrepresentations, word twisting, fallacious reasoning, and outright lying, while including some painful truths, are his MO.

Somehow, I get the feeling it largely included Fudamentalist Christianity and Islam. And not so much Pantheism, Deism, Pandeism, Panentheism, Buddhism, Monism and Religious Naturalism.
That's because those make no sense at all in the first place, and were easy to discard. Also, they can be fluffy cutesy bullshit, but they can and have been bloody gory bullshit too.

You should just admit that you're engaging in Schadenfreude against people's happy spirituality.
Are you sure it means what you think it means? Do you mean I am jealous? And, as I said, I have only ever met one person who was "spiritually" happy and healthy. For most people I know, "Spirituality" is alienating, stressful, and a huge source of hypocrisy.

[[quoteblock[[And nobody is going to be happier by engaging in spiritual abstinence than they are from any other form of abstinence. [[/quoteblock]] Most people engage in LSD, heroin, polyamoury and rollerblade abstinence and are generally quite happy about it.

There are people who get raped by men and still don't hate men
IF the rape was caused by a "Rape Culture", a notion that is was manly, excusable, nay, right, nay, required for the rapist to commit the rape, then hating the culture and the "man" gender role is perfectly reasonable, and is distinct from hating the "male" sex. Many men and women from Morocco absolutely refuse to engage in romance with other Moroccans once they have emigrated, because they hate how those roles trap them into a complicated sort of relationship.

You can blame people in religion of being guilty of "wanting imaginary friends" or being "highly illogical and unscientific" or the like, like I've heard many times before. But it's an entirely different thing to hate spirituality and religious people on misinformed grounds that all interpretations of God are masochistic. And guess what? Comparing believing in gods to having imaginary friends won't work for me either. Because I support the belief and desire to believe in imaginary friends in a spiritual sense, as well. It's called Tulpa. And I believe in Tulpa, too. And I hold no disdain for otaku who spend many more hours than you've read about religion, obsessing over fictional characters. Or those who spend a great portion of their life talking with their cats, in hope they understand even a handful of them.
Are you calling the Straw Vulcan card? Also, does your otaku obsess about fictional characters like they were persons he could meet, or within the frame of a story? Discussing the morality of Light Yagami at length and marrying a Vocaloid pillow are two entirely different things. I don't disdain them, but they do need help... and precisely for that reason, they may never get it. Also "believe" in Tulpa: do you mean "endorse" or "actually believe the Tulpa are actual agents capable of interacting with the actual world?

Or how dare, how dare that someone, of all things, spiritualize and romanticize the Naturalistic Universe!
So, what we have here, is Romanticism vs. Enlightenment. Degnomed the mindes, have I? Unraveled the rainbow, right? Made life boring? Why? Scientific explanations actually tell you stuff about what's going to happen next, and make things simpler, but they don't make them any less awesome. And my reaction isn't "How dare they" indignation but "How cute" fawning condescendence.

edited 29th Dec '10 11:18:06 PM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Diamonnes In Riastrad from Ulster Since: Nov, 2009
In Riastrad
#79: Dec 29th 2010 at 11:04:45 PM

Devil, but No God is a fallacy, dude.

EDIT, not you, Loni. Raw Power up here, Cleric of Atheism.

edited 29th Dec '10 11:12:25 PM by Diamonnes

My name is Cu Chulainn. Beside the raging sea I am left to moan. Sorrow I am, for I brought down my only son.
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#80: Dec 29th 2010 at 11:04:59 PM

I meant what Barkey said, not the video.

Be not afraid...
rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#81: Dec 29th 2010 at 11:16:58 PM

[up]x4 Next May will be six years since my parents have been married. My father's a Christian, but my mother is a atheist.

edited 29th Dec '10 11:17:14 PM by rmctagg09

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#82: Dec 29th 2010 at 11:19:36 PM

[up][up][up] Whoever spoke of Devil, but No God? I am more of a If Jesus, Then Aliens guy. And, in case you couldn't tell, I was talking about the fictional character Satan, as represented since Faust came out, rather than the moron it used to be back in the Middle Ages.

edited 29th Dec '10 11:21:19 PM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#83: Dec 29th 2010 at 11:25:25 PM

And my reaction isn't "How dare they" indignation but "How cute" fawning condescendence.

Look, now you are saying things with no purpose except to offend people.

Be not afraid...
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#84: Dec 29th 2010 at 11:34:09 PM

You're right, some truths and opinions I should keep to myself, expressing them is counterproductive. Funnily enough, back when I was a theist I thought the same: "those guys are being jerkasses for the sake of being jerkasses". It's not true. Compare and contrast with "Jesus loves you", said to a non-believer.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#85: Dec 29th 2010 at 11:50:35 PM

That's not, in my opinion, the same thing. Being blessed by a religion you don't share isn't offensive - if someone were to wish me Happy Hanukkah, or some similar sort of blessing from the pagan religions, I wouldn't mind.

If believers were to go around saying "Oh Jesus, forgive this poor stupid atheist, he doesn't know what he's doing. It's kind of cute, really" that would be offensive.

Be not afraid...
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#86: Dec 29th 2010 at 11:51:59 PM

I guess it's a matter of tone, really, but most of the time I heard that it felt more like the latter than the former.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#87: Dec 30th 2010 at 12:16:21 AM

@Raw Power:

@Carciofus: see, you haven't told me anything I didn't know before, and, even phrased the way you phrased it, it still sounds completely abhorrent to my ears and I am glad to have snapped out of it.
Wait, if you already knew that, why did you write in post 26 that
...the majority of religious people aren't consistent or thorough about either belief or practice... Rich christians are doomed to damnation (when did you see a camel going through a needle's hole?). They should also constantly be charitable, chaste, diligent, humble, kind, patient and temperate, and in the case of the Catholics they should feel guilty about a sin they never commited.
when, according to what you just stated, you know this to be factually incorrect?

(I snipped the parts which discuss other religious traditions, feel free to correct me if by doing this I twisted your intended meaning somehow)

And as for holding oneself to impossible standards of behaviour, well, that's something I thought a TTGL fan would rather appreciate ;-)

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Ukonkivi Over 10,000 dead.:< Since: Aug, 2009
Over 10,000 dead.:<
#88: Dec 30th 2010 at 12:19:23 AM

Also, they can be fluffy cutesy bullshit, but they can and have been bloody gory bullshit too.
Yeah, and that's everything. And your argument is relying on pronouncing the latter and paint the whole thing with it. You're trying to make this characteristic. Kind of like the person who make a thread trying to say that hip-hop music was characteristically misogynistic, and got crucified alive for it. And use this convince people to abstain from spirituality, something that makes them happy.

For most people I know, "Spirituality" is alienating, stressful, and a huge source of hypocrisy.
And most people live among a tiny percentage of the planet. As has it been for much of my life as well, but that's mostly because I couldn't spiritually explore the religion I wanted to due to opression. I had to be a Crypto-Pagan. Are most of the people around you, invovled in religion, part of or invovled in the Abrahamic faiths?

Really, an anecdotal means little in the case. Spirituality, for many people I know, after escaping from many Christians, is fullfilling, in ways I longed for my entire childhood. And one of the great things that I enjoy in life that make me enjoy it and look forward to it continuing on.

Most people engage in LSD, heroin, polyamoury and rollerblade abstinence and are generally quite happy about it.
And I'm sure plenty of people engage in sexual abstience and are generally quite happy about it. Sex also even spreads ST Ds and other problems when done irresponsibly, just like religion! And yet, I wouldn't tell people to abstain from either, I would tell both to do things that facilitate their enjoyment of life responsibly.

Are you sure it means what you think it means?
Enjoyment in taking pleasure from others? How is that not Schadenfreude?

Vocaloid pillow are two entirely different things.
Oh come on, you can't paint anyone who becomes reasonably attached to a fictional character with that stroke. And even this person doesn't technically "need help". It's cultural subversive, to give importance to fictional characters in some way. But there's nothing truly wrong with it. As one thread in this site has mention, people are labled and insane too easily. There's nothing wrong with Perverse Sexual Lust, or tributing to some fictional character, or developing emotional attachments and bonds and time, and desire for time among media and representations of that character. Where does one draw a line? Would one play a game such as Love Plus without a desire? And is there anything wrong with playing such a game? Who are we to judge Ushiromiya Kinzo, for loving Beatrice? Is loving Beatrice the wrong, or negative actions he may have taken in her fixation? I would posit the former is not very harmful, only the latter.

Also "believe" in Tulpa: do you mean "endorse" or "actually believe the Tulpa are actual agents capable of interacting with the actual world?
Both! Though I need no distinction for this conversation in saying it. I really ought let you make the distinction. The really only important usage here is "support", given that the argument here is based upon your position against spirituality and my position for it. The arguement about Occam's Razor and validity of Spiritual-esque hypotheses is not an argument I am interested in getting into here, in this thread. I've got enough on my hands without defending Pantheism from Atheism.

Scientific explanations
There's nothing wrong with Science. It is the tool near all of which our enjoyment and prosperity fall on. However, people's subjective enjoyment of life should not be encroached up on the name of a tool. That very tool itself would show that there is no objective purpose in life. So there are limits to that tool. I personally value that tool for happiness.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#89: Dec 30th 2010 at 1:02:17 AM

This is Hollywood Atheist if I've ever seen it in action. And y'all are real Atheists. I can understand being an Atheist on rational skeptic grounds. But calling all gods hypocritical sociopaths is just being misinformed. I'm sorry, but if you think that, you Did Not Do The Research.

This is very true.

(I am an atheist on rational skeptic grounds.)

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#90: Dec 30th 2010 at 1:37:30 AM

As fictional characters, that is my Alternate Character Interpretation of them. Even if they were benevolent, I would still classify them as fictional and not believe in them. It just happens that I find most of them unworthy of worship, either because they are Jerkass, evil, negligent, but mostly because they are simply useless, and if I was forced to pray to a fictional character, I'd consider Superman to be a better god than the lot of them, in moral terms.

Carfocious: you had already mentioned those points in the other threads, and I think the implications of what you say and the literal words I say are one and the same. In other words, in my mind, what you are doing is just paraphrasing: I really cannot tell the difference.

Also, as for Gurren Lagann, Touché. But it doesn't say that you'll go to hell for not doing the impossible, nor that you automatically require forgiveness for not doing something that can't be done. I'll keep Original!Garterbelt's posture on this.

beginning at 4:00

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#91: Dec 30th 2010 at 1:43:33 AM

The majority of religions do not claim that you will go to hell for not living up to their standards.

Be not afraid...
Carbonek13 Student Eternal from the Deep South Since: Jan, 2001
Student Eternal
#92: Dec 30th 2010 at 2:42:54 AM

"Ancient cultures did not worship idols. Their god-statues represented ideal states which, when meditated constantly upon, one might aspire to. Science proves there never was a mermaid, blue-skinned Krishna or a virgin birth in physical reality. Yet thought is real, and the domain of thought is the one place where gods inarguably exist, wielding tremendous power. If Aphrodite were a myth and Love only a concept, then would that negate the crimes and kindnesses and songs done in Love's name? If Christ were only ever fiction, a divine Idea, would this invalidate the social change inspired by that idea, make holy wars less terrible, or human betterment less real, less sacred?"

The man who wrote that now worships a snake puppet.

Machines were mice and men were lions once upon a time, but now that it's the opposite it's twice upon a time. - Moondog
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#93: Dec 30th 2010 at 2:45:34 AM

They don't need to. For instance Jews don't believe in hell, but the orthodox ones believe the justification for Mosaic Law is itself. In Greek mythology, everyone goes to Hades, but that doesn't mean piousness wasn't vitally important. In fact, Socrates got executed because of it.

[up][up]... If you don't want to defend neo-paganism from atheism, then fine. However, if both of you were atheists, or unitarian, you could go along nicely. However, if both of you truly enjoy each of your faiths, are entirely satisfied with them, and would not change them for anything, then by all means please do, you are free to do it, it's your right. I still think it's useless fluff we can do without, and that science does hold the answers on happiness and the rest, because it will tell you the truth about what works and what doesn't, about how pain and pleasure work, about how to optimize one and minimize the other. Science is the tool of the truthseeker. Science gets you results. And the world seen through the prism of Science, if you have the right mindset, is way, waaay more awesome than any gods or supernatural contraptions. Everything is consistent, everything makes sense, everything has its place. Scientism will not reduce your Sense of Wonder at the Real World.

And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the insanity issue. To me, sane = in tune with the material, physical, observable, measurable world we all share. A person who marries a pillow has serious issues. When I say they need help, I mean need they need help in teaching them how to deal with people and be socially successful. But when you are needy and weak and isolated, no-one will help you. Unless you pay them, and even then they are more interested in you still paying them and getting addicted to the sessions than in you getting cured.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#94: Dec 30th 2010 at 3:00:13 AM

I am sick of this attitude that either Religion or Science is the One True Way(tm) and you must pick one 'side' or the other. It isn't like that. I consider myself a woman of science, and science is indeed wonderful. But that does not mean that I have to give up my belief in spiritual things.

Science alone does not give you happiness. Things like safety, a purpose in life, a sense of wonder, self-respect, friendship, love - those will give you happiness, and you cannot science your way to those. Not without something else that is far too complicated for us to measure and modify to our heart's content. Some people find religion helpful in achieving these things, so who are you to say that it's useless?

edited 30th Dec '10 3:02:17 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#95: Dec 30th 2010 at 3:05:07 AM

I'm an atheist primarily for philosophical rather than scientific reasons (not cause I'm rubbish at science or anything). Call me a Wide-Eyed Idealist, but I believe in the the human spirit. I think it is because of that I find the concept of Original Sin so insulting and repugnant.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#96: Dec 30th 2010 at 3:17:33 AM

and you cannot science your way to those
And here is where we disagree. Not only do I believe you can, but in fact most of my progress in these aspects of my life, I have achieved using science. It may help that I am completely helpless in the "gut feeling" department, and that, in fact, I have to rely on scientific, explicit explanations and observations of people's behavior in order to understand them.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#97: Dec 30th 2010 at 3:19:08 AM

A Humanist, eh? Enlightenment 4 evar, gimme five!

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#98: Dec 30th 2010 at 3:20:14 AM

Really? You've found a sure-fire, 99.95% successful, completely scientific way to make friends with someone? To make someone fall in love with you?

Kindly write up your findings, you will make a fortune selling them.

edited 30th Dec '10 3:21:45 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#99: Dec 30th 2010 at 3:23:41 AM

Considering that religion is not really keen to have itself examined or peer reviewed I can kind of see where the divide is coming from.The problem is that Religion frequently defies attempts to analyse it or even (in some cases) question it, because its "blasphemy" or "unkind" to talk about it.

And humans are different, but in general being nice to them, being willing to listen and helping out can all be precursours to love and friendship, ofc THEN you have to tailor it to the person using the avaliable data. And I don't think self-respect ever comes into a religious discussion, it gives you something to be part of, not a reason to be.

LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#100: Dec 30th 2010 at 3:28:41 AM

On the contrary, self-respect comes into the religous discussions I have with my catholic youth group all the time. Respect for people, including yourself, is the guiding principle behind a lot of precepts of religion.

Be not afraid...

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