TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Trope Repair Shop and Image Pickin Problem

Go To

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#26: Dec 21st 2010 at 8:54:52 PM

They probably would pick the etiquette up quicker if they read the stickies.

Fight smart, not fair.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#27: Dec 21st 2010 at 9:18:46 PM

It is the obligation of the newcomer to pick up the etiquette. This is no different here on TV Tropes than it was when I joined my first modem BBS lo those many years ago. People who think that the wiki should cater to their ignorance have a harsh learning curve ahead of them.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
americanbadass Banned from [CENSORED] Since: Mar, 2010
Banned
#28: Dec 21st 2010 at 9:51:13 PM

@Fighteer - The silent majority can vote, but It be easier if Most people knew that we have a voting system. I was using this site for two years before I learned that crowners didn't stand for crowing moments.

I've wanted to suggest multiple times for some kind of scrolling banner that listed crowners at the top of each page (or just the home page).

edited 21st Dec '10 10:00:55 PM by americanbadass

[[User Banned]]_ My Pm box ix still open though, I think?
EternalSeptember Since: Sep, 2010
#29: Dec 21st 2010 at 10:17:09 PM

And "Images are changed too easily" and another crowd going "Image Pickin has too strict criterions for images!" Which one is it?

Actually, I started that thread, and I believe both. Most of my frustration was coming from the fact that people are pulling good existing images, with the reasoning that it's not good enough, and don't put up anything else.

The Image picking is very rearly about finding a first picture for a page, it's about changes, so "they are strict" was intended to mean that they change too strictly.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#30: Dec 22nd 2010 at 12:50:03 AM

[up][up] Every page now has a notification if it has a TRS thread about it, and if the TRS thread has a crowner, then said crowner is at the bottom of the thread. I doubt we can make it any more obvious. I mean, sure, we could make the page link to the crowner, but if people arent even gonna read the thread before voting, that's beyond pointeless.

We also have a page listing all crowners too. A distracting scrolling list of crowner would just be annoying.

edited 22nd Dec '10 12:51:57 AM by Ghilz

SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#31: Dec 22nd 2010 at 2:18:27 AM

It is the obligation of the newcomer to pick up the etiquette.

This is complete folly. There is a limit to what one can do to open one's organisation up but this attitude is one for organisations that die a clumsy death. For one thing, it's not a policy a newcomer can be aware of. You're putting into the site etiquette that one must already know the etiquette. Hear that, that's the sound of Joseph Heller in a tumble dryer.

The aim is to get the most number of new people up to date as easily as possible. Even thinking in terms of obligation is rather useless to us. Plus, our etiquette is built on experience of the most efficient way to deal with things. We however will want to attract different mindsets as we develope so that we constantly update our procedures to be at their most efficient and for this, they need to be easily explainable and with their base reasonin common knowledge and available to be questioned by even the lowest newbie.

TripleElation Diagonalizing The Matrix from Haifa, Isarel Since: Jan, 2001
Diagonalizing The Matrix
#32: Dec 22nd 2010 at 4:47:06 AM

I told myself I'd drop this, but I find myself returning to it again and again...

Eddie- You said that voting is the least productive method of deciding what to do, which is usually right, except current policy is firmly on the side of the keep-the-name crowd. Because of this, many times discussion boils down to "We have policy!" "To hell with the policy!". Optionally a crowner will be hooked while this "discussion" goes on, and voting ends up being the most productive thing we do. The numbers lend themselves more readily to synthesis than the people do.

So how is it possible we're getting both "renaming is too easy" complaints and "not renaming is too easy" complaints? Well, I'm not sure, but I have a suspicion that there is a core group- but it's not an anti-renaming cabal or a pro-renaming cabal, it's just a core group of people who are familiar with how the TRS works and how to pull its strings. They're the ones who know how to "game the system" to get what they believe would be the best result for the wiki. To help a rename you push a crowner as soon as possible and build on early pro-renaming momentum to get people to "jump on the bandwagon", to stop a rename you shout "policy, policy" and demand the thread be locked so the 10-20 people who may disagree with you are moot.

Paradoxically, the sorts of me and the OP have similar complaints: Due to policy and culture quirks, the TRS system is too exploitable. The above strategies to get a rename accepted/rejected dominate, and it's very easy for a few people to blitzkrieg a thread so the other position never gets a chance to be heard and people who agree with it never get a chance to show their support in any way that matters. Someone earlier mentioned that if both the too-few-renames hacks and the too-many-renames hacks are complaining we must be doing something right. Well, I'm not so sure.

edited 22nd Dec '10 5:40:36 AM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#33: Dec 22nd 2010 at 6:23:06 AM

I think the main "barrier to entry" is that some people just can't check the forums on a daily basis, for whatever reason. The threads can move pretty fast, and this does leave some people out. It's a problem I've run into before; I've personally had to calm down at least one person complaining about a rename (one I was involved in) that went down over a period when he couldn't be on the wiki to protest it.

In regards to people like that, there's not a lot we can do. We can't control how much free time people have to access the wiki. If the people do have the time and aren't involved in TRS or Image Picking, then we can cook up incentives or persuade them to spend more time in that section of the forums. Other then that, this particular barrier will always exist to some degree, regardless of how much we want it not to.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Cidolfas Since: Jan, 2001
#34: Dec 22nd 2010 at 6:29:49 AM

I'll take exception to one bit in particular, which is that there is some kind of insular "group" that decides things. There is no "group". There is a set of individuals, each of which have their own ideas, methods, and priorities, who have decided to make themselves heard. If you wanted to make yourself heard, you, too, would be an individual who would have exactly as much power as everyone else who does. Creating some arbitrary, fanciful number of minimum votes is a very, very bad idea.

As to the contention that we make it too easy to make changes - no, we don't. There are in fact very strict guidelines about when tropes may be renamed, and the current policies favor not allowing the rename unless there's a good reason to (where said reason ranges from clear misuse, names that don't indicate the meaning of the trope, etc.) Boiling down to "I really have no idea what you're talking about."

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#35: Dec 22nd 2010 at 7:17:49 AM

This is complete folly. There is a limit to what one can do to open one's organisation up but this attitude is one for organisations that die a clumsy death. For one thing, it's not a policy a newcomer can be aware of. You're putting into the site etiquette that one must already know the etiquette.
This is a gross oversimplification. We don't need an etiquette manual when all a user has to do is browse the site for a few days to pick up how we typically do things. It is a basic rule of social intercourse that you don't just barge blindly into an established group and start demanding things.

I always lurk on any new forum I go to before venturing to post. This is such a fundamental rule of netiquette that anyone who hasn't picked up on it yet can be assumed to be a noob and treated appropriately.

We go to great efforts to ensure that everyone who has an interest in a TRS discussion is notified. The only thing I could think of that might improve things is if the watchlist had an indicator that a page is TRS or IP tagged.

edited 22nd Dec '10 7:18:02 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
blackcat Since: Apr, 2009
#36: Dec 22nd 2010 at 7:51:43 AM

This is a variation of one of the classic arguments in education.

  • How do you balance making things accessible with the mission of the organization?
  • At what point does the task of making every thing accessible and easily understood for the new people take over and swamp the wiki's mission?
  • When are new people responsible for their own learning?
  • When have we done enough to ensure that every single person who comes here feels enfranchised?
  • And why in hell is that our problem?

The discussion here is beginning to splinter into a couple of different directions, and I am contributing to that fracture. I'll stop.

[up]+/-8 Rather than a scrolling banner which would prolly turn me into a brain crushing psychopath I like the idea of a news kiosk, someplace where people can pick up the latest news with a link to the significant thread. It would save all the little threads that spring up when there is a problem or the wiki goes down. Obviously, maintaining it would have to be something that was done on a regular basis, and the staff has enough on their plates.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#37: Dec 22nd 2010 at 8:10:07 AM

A "news kiosk" is an interesting idea, but all ideas of this sort fall into the basic problem that the majority of users of any site (not just this wiki) have a tunnel vision mindset - they go to the article they're interested in, read/edit it, then maybe Wiki Walk around, paying little or no attention to bigger issues unless they have a direct impact on their browsing experience.

The classic example is a user who complains that a trope was renamed after the fact. If they aren't a frequent enough visitor to the trope that they didn't notice the banner, then why are they so concerned about it in the first place? It really sounds like retroactive sour grapes.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Osmium from Germany Since: Dec, 2010
#38: Dec 22nd 2010 at 8:18:49 AM

We could make a rule, that a TRS or IP discussion has to run for a certain amount of time e.g. one week before something is changed. This would give people enough time to react, when their favorite trope is about to change.

TripleElation Diagonalizing The Matrix from Haifa, Isarel Since: Jan, 2001
Diagonalizing The Matrix
#39: Dec 22nd 2010 at 8:23:11 AM

(where said reason ranges from clear misuse, names that don't indicate the meaning of the trope, etc.)

According to current policy, official necessary grounds for renaming is insufficient good inbound links AND significant misuse AND it not being recognized in some fandom AND consensus support.

Necessary, mind you. Not sufficient.

edited 22nd Dec '10 8:29:08 AM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
Ironeye Cutmaster-san from SoCal Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
#40: Dec 22nd 2010 at 8:24:44 AM

We're already supposed to wait 3 days after the consensus becomes clear before making a change, and by convention, this three-day clock cannot end on a weekend, which often adds more time.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#41: Dec 22nd 2010 at 8:48:21 AM

[up][up] But there have still been renames performed when some of those criteria were not meant. If there is a broad consensus that a change is needed, it will happen.

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#42: Dec 22nd 2010 at 9:02:59 AM

[up] When did this happen? What pages are you talking about?

I've seen these claims made repeatedly in this thread but not a single concrete example to go with them.

edited 22nd Dec '10 9:03:44 AM by SeanMurrayI

Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#43: Dec 22nd 2010 at 9:29:05 AM

Off the top of my head, the change from Suzumiya Haruhi to Haruhi Suzumiya would qualify. There have been others, but off the top of my head I can't remember them.

(Note: I'm not mentioning this to debate whether the change should have been made, just giving an example of an article that had good inbound links, good wicks, and no misuse issue that was still renamed by popular demand.)

edited 22nd Dec '10 9:29:23 AM by Meeble

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#44: Dec 22nd 2010 at 9:35:05 AM

That was simply a switch between main name and redirect. Both names are still active and in use, as the fact that they're both bluelinks in your post indicates.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#45: Dec 22nd 2010 at 9:36:17 AM

Further, it was an argument over the proper romanization of a Japanese name, so why it would cause any serious uproar except among people for whom that's some kind of Berserk Button is beyond me.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#46: Dec 22nd 2010 at 9:41:31 AM

@Mad and Fighteer: I wasn't complaining that the rename happened. I was using that as an example to counter Triple Elation's assertion that an article must have misuse, inbound, and wick issues before being renamed.

In that case, the rename was suggested, there was debate about it, a crowner was added, and enough votes in favor of the rename came in.

This was an example of the current process working despite the original article having good numbers in all three categories.

edited 22nd Dec '10 9:44:17 AM by Meeble

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
TripleElation Diagonalizing The Matrix from Haifa, Isarel Since: Jan, 2001
Diagonalizing The Matrix
#47: Dec 22nd 2010 at 9:48:34 AM

I wasn't saying that an article must, in practice, have all of these things to get renamed. I was saying that our official policy has all of these mounting requirements standing there waiting to be exploited by anyone who decides "I don't like this rename and I'm going to shoot it down". Three or four posters is usually enough to get it to work.

People won't be barging in every thread demanding these requirements would be met, but the moment someone cares enough about stopping a rename and is policy-savvy, they're very likely to succeed by simply citing policy. Unless, of course, the title is actually so bad as to fit the policy. Do we even have titles that are this broken?

edited 22nd Dec '10 9:51:47 AM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#48: Dec 22nd 2010 at 9:56:50 AM

Someone citing one of those reasons not to rename something is still just a single person with an opinion. Citing those guidelines does not prevent others from posting their opinions either for or against... it is up to the people for a rename to convince enough others that a rename should happen, as the default assumption is to leave something as is without good reason to do otherwise.

If that happens, the rename occurs. If it doesn't, the article stays the same. It is a process that seems to be working from what I have seen.

edited 22nd Dec '10 9:57:14 AM by Meeble

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
TripleElation Diagonalizing The Matrix from Haifa, Isarel Since: Jan, 2001
Diagonalizing The Matrix
#49: Dec 22nd 2010 at 10:03:11 AM

Someone citing Site Policy is "just a person with an opinion"?

Really?

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
blackcat Since: Apr, 2009
#50: Dec 22nd 2010 at 10:34:42 AM

I believe the term used is Site Guidelines.


Total posts: 168
Top