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Ronka87 Since: Jun, 2009
#151: Apr 4th 2011 at 12:46:52 PM

I know what you mean. I stopped reading Crank 'cause of that (although another part of it was that Crank is a horribly depressing novel).

vifetoile Since: Jan, 2001
#152: Apr 4th 2011 at 2:12:53 PM

[up][up] Your signature line made that entire post full of Win.

I agree in terms of Out of the Dust, by Karen Hesse. I still can't get why it was put into freeverse poetry, other than the fact that writing it in prose would be too damn depressing. However, I'm currently reading Maxine Hong Kingston's I Love A Broad Margin to my Life, also written in freeverse, and I'm liking it.

FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#153: Apr 5th 2011 at 2:35:00 AM

A villain exists to engender conflict in some fashion, even if it isn't the main one. If a villain cannot contribute to the conflict in a story, they have no reason to exist, so sapping them of their primary purpose is pointless. It doesn't matter if it's not the "main" conflict; then they're just extraneous characters who do nothing.

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#154: Apr 5th 2011 at 4:00:03 AM

They have to contribute to the story, yes, but that's not the same thing as being a "credible threat". Maybe the villain's there to get creamed in a humiliating Curb-Stomp Battle so that an Omniscient Council of Vagueness will become aware of the hero's ass-kicking ability. Or maybe the villain is a bail jumper who doesn't pose much of a threat to anyone but serves as a handy MacGuffin for the bounty hunter hero to chase across the country. Or maybe the villain is almost completely harmless so that, when the heroes' fail to use teamwork, their inability to stop the bad guy is all the more embarrassing. I could go on ...

FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#155: Apr 5th 2011 at 11:06:41 AM

MacGuffin villains bug the hell out of me, so I'm afraid most of that example convinces me of nothing. If a villain doesn't do anything in the story by himself, then it makes me wonder why the author bothered to write a story with a villain at all, since they'd obviously rather write a story about a Sour Supporter or whatever and would rather come up with a lazy justification for the characters being together.

The "weakling" villain would bother me even more, because Curb Stomps are basically a flat-out aversion of conflict. If one side poses no threat to another, there's no real danger. And that's not really compelling.

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
PDown It's easy, mmkay? Since: Jan, 2012
It's easy, mmkay?
#156: Apr 5th 2011 at 3:53:39 PM

Are stories with villainous organizations rather than a single villainous character okay?

At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#157: Apr 5th 2011 at 5:58:22 PM

Let it be known that your 90's morning montages have no place in literature, yargh!

Read my stories!
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#158: Apr 5th 2011 at 6:06:07 PM

MacGuffin villains bug the hell out of me, so I'm afraid most of that example convinces me of nothing. If a villain doesn't do anything in the story by himself, then it makes me wonder why the author bothered to write a story with a villain at all, since they'd obviously rather write a story about a Sour Supporter or whatever and would rather come up with a lazy justification for the characters being together.

So let's say you want to write a story about a bounty hunter travelling across the country investigating in each town s/he comes to. How are you going to manage that without having a fugitive for them to chase.

The "weakling" villain would bother me even more, because Curb Stomps are basically a flat-out aversion of conflict. If one side poses no threat to another, there's no real danger. And that's not really compelling.

But this is for Bit-Part Bad Guys, the ones whose appearances are just a step above cameos. Their purpose isn't to provide danger, it's to provide an opportunity for (a) the heroes to show off their skills, (b) setting up a plot point, like one character going berserk during fights, (c) someone to stop the bad guy before the usual cast of heroes do, creating conflict between them and the new hero, (d) forcing the heroes to take time out of their lives to stop the villain, interrupting some social event they were involved in, (e) the heroes to save someone's life from the villain, making them grateful to/obsessed with the heroes, (f) and I could list many more.

FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#159: Apr 6th 2011 at 12:53:16 AM

A bounty hunter can be chasing a fugitive without said fugitive being a complete non-entity in the story. They can still attempt to foil their pursuers, or get into shenanigans. But if the viewpoint never switches from the hunter and/or the fugitive does nothing to them, or on their own, then they don't necessarily work. We need to see the fugitive eluding the hunter, or the aftermath thereof, in order to get the feeling that the hunter actually has their work cut out for them. But if they're just pursuing someone, and that fugitive doesn't appear to actually do anything active to evade them, then I'd start to get the feeling the hunter was just incompetent.

And a Bit Part Bad Guy is a very different role from a primary antagonist, but honestly, pretty much any Curb-Stomp Battle in favor of the heroes will make me cry "Boring Invincible Hero," since that's a Pet-Peeve Trope.

edited 6th Apr '11 12:54:26 AM by FreezairForALimitedTime

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#160: Apr 6th 2011 at 5:53:13 AM

Maybe we have different definitions of "threat", but if a fugitive focuses only on evading the bounty hunter rather than attacking them or someone else, I wouldn't consider them a threatening villain, but they could still make for an interesting story.

FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#161: Apr 6th 2011 at 10:42:44 AM

We must, because if said fugitive only focuses on evasion, then they still pose a threat, because they're difficult to capture.

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
LadyMomus Since: Apr, 2009
#162: Apr 6th 2011 at 11:10:21 AM

wuggles and Ronka 87- I agree on free verse novels being annoying. I'm currently reading Crank, and the poetry is really starting to grate on me. Especially since it can't seem to decide if it wants to be in 1st or 3rd person.

I dislike present tense narration. It sounds awkward, and it makes flashbacks a grammar nightmare.

edited 6th Apr '11 11:11:47 AM by LadyMomus

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#163: Apr 6th 2011 at 1:29:51 PM

Present tense! It's so weird. I've only read two books in my life using present tense. It certainly is grammatically awkward, but in both cases, once I adapted to it, I got used to it.

cheeseypoofs from my happy place Since: Jan, 2010
#164: Apr 6th 2011 at 3:41:48 PM

[up][up] I hate freeverse novels

Because I'm like

Seriously,

Why did you put

A line break there?

my essay blog! Dalton Liveblog
ImipolexG frozen in time from all our yesterdays Since: Jan, 2001
frozen in time
#165: Apr 6th 2011 at 7:11:52 PM

I often like present tense narration, personally, although I don't encounter it much. It helps that my favorite book is mostly written that way, I suppose.

I keep thinking I might adopt present tense as my usual mode, but I don't know.

no one will notice that I changed this
zerky Since: Jan, 2001
#166: Apr 7th 2011 at 6:54:43 AM

Romantic Plot Tumor... Urgh. Get back to the story already!

Bur from Flyover Country (Living Relic) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#167: Apr 7th 2011 at 4:00:40 PM

That's crazy talk! People only buy books with romance wedged awkwardly in alongside badly written sex scenes.

cheeseypoofs from my happy place Since: Jan, 2010
#168: Apr 7th 2011 at 4:17:24 PM

[up] Yes. Clearly. Especially in a non-romance book.

my essay blog! Dalton Liveblog
Bur from Flyover Country (Living Relic) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#169: Apr 7th 2011 at 5:21:19 PM

How else are they going to sell that non-romance book but with romance??

...sorry. [lol] Romantic Plot Tumors are actually a little berserk button of mine and have been the cause of many a book being sacrificed to fire in the middle of the caul de sac.

edited 7th Apr '11 5:21:30 PM by Bur

melloncollie Since: Feb, 2012
#170: Apr 7th 2011 at 5:23:20 PM

... does second-person narration bother anyone else?

cheeseypoofs from my happy place Since: Jan, 2010
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#172: Apr 7th 2011 at 8:04:11 PM

I really hate it when Police Are Useless.... until they start to hinder the heroes. Like if they don't believe any amount of evidence thrown at them yet the second someone so much as accuses the hero they send in a Riot Squad.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Idler20 Rabbit Season Since: Oct, 2010
Rabbit Season
#173: Apr 8th 2011 at 4:33:37 AM

[up][up][up] You are extremely bothered by second-person narration. You find it irritating, pretentious and hard to read.

You're an ad hominem attack!
zerky Since: Jan, 2001
#174: Apr 8th 2011 at 5:38:51 AM

Choose Your Own Adventure books tend to be written in second person. The only other book zerky can think of is a YA novel called Freewill.

MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#175: Apr 8th 2011 at 7:56:50 AM

I know I dislike 2nd person narration.

Read my stories!

Total posts: 369
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