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Averting "Man Is Not A Virgin"...Good Idea/Bad Idea?

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drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#1: Dec 15th 2010 at 7:49:01 PM

So...I've been busying myself with character backgrounds (when I'm not getting drunk and ranting here, of course), and I came to a crossroads regarding my male lead.

He's not what you'd call a mack daddy; hell, he's uncomfortable around women in general for a variety of very good reasons. He's not gay, but his experiences with the "fair sex" haven't been what you'd call confidence-building.

Morgan's a cynical, hard-bitten gun for hire. His comrades are a bunch of "Ale & Whores" types, but he's not that way. And because he has a goal for all his hard-earned money, he's not the sort to waste it on purchased sex. He also hasn't had a lot of time for meaningful relationships.

So, I'm opening the floor to positions regarding A Man Is Not A Virgin and whether it would be going too far to avert it in his case. My three options, at least as I see them, would be...

  • 1: Play the trope straight. When younger he did the "booze and hookers" thing but found it unsatisfying and since is looking for more. Not unreasonable, as he's been hanging with a bunch of cock-swinging mercenaries since his late teens.
  • 2: Avert it. He never found the time, didn't like the numbers on buying a prostitute, and his discomfort around women kept him virginal.
  • 3: Leave it an open question. He'll find a girl eventually (its written into the series), and maybe implying that he's less than experienced without coming out and saying it (leaving the audience to make their own guesses) is the right idea.

Questions/comments/ideas? Mostly I'm wondering at the believability of a man navigating the den of sleaze without falling prey to it.

It's a Steampunk flavored world based on 19th century Europe, for those of you who haven't been following my other posts.

edited 15th Dec '10 7:59:56 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
JewelyJ from A state in the USA Since: Jul, 2009
#2: Dec 15th 2010 at 7:51:52 PM

I would like to see this. 2 or 3 preferably. I am really sick of the A Man Is Not A Virgin trope. It just seems sexist.

edited 15th Dec '10 7:52:29 PM by JewelyJ

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#3: Dec 15th 2010 at 8:02:14 PM

[up]Yeah, it sort of is, even if most men deserve to have it hung on them. I remember being 16 and having a good portion of my mind devoted to "gottagetlaidgottagetlaidgottagetlaid..."

And in my story's case, it would be an audience shocker when they find out that the sweet housewife type knows more about sex (being a mother of two) than the manly mercenary...[lol]

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
JewelyJ from A state in the USA Since: Jul, 2009
#4: Dec 15th 2010 at 8:07:36 PM

OH LOL

That's awesome.

In my own works I have a quite few boys who are virgins. Heck The four brothers (all major characters) of one story are all virgins for a while. Skye, because he's reserved and doesn't trust people easily; Timothy because he's the naive and innocent one, Kat because he's mentally screwed up having been locked up in a room for most of his life and doesn't know how to interact with people, and Dex because he's terrified of women.

edited 15th Dec '10 8:08:30 PM by JewelyJ

ImipolexG frozen in time from all our yesterdays Since: Jan, 2001
frozen in time
#5: Dec 15th 2010 at 8:10:51 PM

Personally, I also think this trope should be averted more. Given the character's background, it would seem unlikely, but that might make it all the more interesting.

no one will notice that I changed this
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#6: Dec 15th 2010 at 8:15:42 PM

Sounds like they all have similarly excellent reasons for retaining their virginity.

Yeah, Morgan's experiences with women...

  • The crazy tribal woman he was promised to in an alliance marriage (which is father hoped he would screw up) who challenged him to a fight by dropping out of a tree and trying to dash out his brains with a war club...
  • The 13-year-old child prostitute he tries to protect who cannot get it through her head that yes, he likes her but no, that doesn't mean he wants to have sex with her. Note: that doesn't end well for either of them.
  • Many, many desperate women who hire him to right wrongs for them (my world has a "if you're not a citizen the cops don't help you" slight problem), and keep offering to pay him in sex.

Yeah, not so much with the romance. cool

So I guess Jewely's for Morgan being a virgin. Anyone else?

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
KillerClowns Since: Jan, 2001
#7: Dec 15th 2010 at 8:44:22 PM

I'd say go for three, unless it actually becomes a plot point.

If you wanted to milk it, you could go so far as to have his fellow mercs suspect he's playing for the other team. This could either be used to emphasize how close their bond, is by showing they're comfortable around him despite their false assumptions, or to distance him from his team by introducing a schismatic element.

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#8: Dec 15th 2010 at 9:03:37 PM

[up]It does somewhat become a plot point, due to romance issues with a female lead in one of the stories. Deciding how I want to play that out is why I'm asking this.

And I was planning on having at least one of his fellow lancers joke about Morgan's preferences. [lol]

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#9: Dec 15th 2010 at 9:42:43 PM

I like 3 actually, especially if The Reveal is, as mentioned with the housewife-mercenary scene.

It'd be good, though, if him being a virgin actually isn't a huge deal for him. So while his friends might joke around about him and his preferences, he doesn't have any real emotional crisis about not getting laid (Because he has other more important priorities; because while sex is nice, there's a time and place for that sort of thing; because he doesn't want to take advantage of a woman, even if he does find her attractive).

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drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#10: Dec 15th 2010 at 9:54:08 PM

[up]You pretty much just exactly described his viewpoint on the matter. cool

It's not a big plot detail in terms of pages covered but its a crucial one in terms of character development. And 3 was what I was leaning towards anyway.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#11: Dec 15th 2010 at 11:35:59 PM

I think you should go with 2, or maybe three. This trope needs to be averted more often.

Be not afraid...
Dealan Since: Feb, 2010
#12: Dec 16th 2010 at 1:03:01 AM

Option number 3 sounds best. Also, I like how being a virgin is not a big deal for the guy. I never got why stories tend to overemphasize this.

PsychoFreaX Card-Carrying Villain >:D from Transcended Humanity Since: Jan, 2010
#13: Dec 16th 2010 at 1:46:20 AM

Yeah I think it's a good idea to avert the trope. 2 or 3 like what everyone else said. I always though A Man Is Not A Virgin is a dumb trope anyway.

Sure you will turn down the mainstream audience. But people like me(and I see a few other tropers here might [lol]) would be more interested in a male lead who differs from the mainstream in ways like this.

edited 16th Dec '10 1:46:41 AM by PsychoFreaX

Help?.. please...
greedling Since: Feb, 2010
#14: Dec 16th 2010 at 2:09:44 AM

Is Asexuality out of the question?

ETA: Oops, missed the relationship thing, though he could still be heteroromantic. Although unless he's shown wanting relationships/sex even if he doesn't go for it, people will still probably be thinking it.

In any case, I'd approve of either 2 or 3.

edited 16th Dec '10 2:13:45 AM by greedling

You will not go to space today.
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#15: Dec 16th 2010 at 7:44:04 AM

Say he's had a couple failed relationships, of vague gender (tongue), some went farther than others, but that's really about it.

Read my stories!
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#16: Dec 16th 2010 at 9:25:46 PM

Oh, he leans towards womenfolk...very much so. Man might be a virgin, but its not due to homo/asexuality. Just a lack of the ability to trust. Such is often portrayed in female protagonists (usually ones about to be saved by The Power of Love) but very seldom in straight, masculine males. Why I thought it might be interesting.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#17: Dec 17th 2010 at 2:23:59 PM

I like option 2 or 3, especially regarding the reveal you mentioned in the third post. smile

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
colbertimposter Since: Dec, 1969
#18: Dec 19th 2010 at 5:09:48 AM

3 sounds best because you'd essentially be giving the choice to the audience.

If I were writing it, I'd probably have him attack this trope plus a lot of related ones kind of like this:

"It's clear this is a rationalization. They cower in fear over the slightest threat, and then to make themselves feel better tell themselves 'I may be a total coward now as I flee for my life from that toddler holding a slingshot, but, um, uh... I'm brave because I touched booby! And also because, um, uh... I eat meat, listen to rock/rap music, watch action films, and my eye-allergy acted up when I saw Titanic!'... It's just a way of deluding themselves into thinking that they've proven their worth without actually doing anything noteworthy." (rationalizations are very easy to see through, actually)

It would fit if he had a personal hero who had done something noteworthy like a soldier, firefighter, etc. I could see a dead heroic father working well (but not being unusual from a writing standpoint).

Takwin Polite smartass. from R'lyeh Since: Feb, 2010
Polite smartass.
#19: Dec 19th 2010 at 8:51:47 PM

I see no problem with it. The A Man Is Not A Virign trope is a remarkably old and outdated one, and it's just begging to be averted.

I've returned from the depths to continue politely irritating the good people of Tv Tropes.(◕‿◕✿)
juancarlos11 Since: Aug, 2011
#20: Dec 20th 2010 at 12:49:32 PM

sure this guy is a virgin and it is awesome that you avert the Man Is Not A Virgin...thing. but you still have too address the fact that Morgan has needs

It's not exactly naive. And it can happen. But it's tough. And definetly worthwhile.
lordGacek Since: Jan, 2001
#21: Dec 20th 2010 at 1:31:12 PM

[up] Well, it's not like he must choke the chicken, either.

By the way, since there's already a thread, I'll spill a bit of my thoughts concerning my own work. I've got a character around late teens (in a fantasy world), and kind of a loser with mental problems. So, I was wondering on it, I expected to play the trope straight by making him to have had a single encounter with the village slut. Then I saw this thread and wondered, is it really needed? But then, if he gets a girl and some Character Development, it'll end up looking like all he needed was to get laid, and that's, you know. Perhaps I'll take option #3 and avoid the topic.

edited 20th Dec '10 1:31:53 PM by lordGacek

Bur from Flyover Country (Living Relic) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#22: Dec 20th 2010 at 1:32:46 PM

The "a man has needs" thing needs to be averted more too. Maybe it's because my libido is deader than roadkill, but that's always just really... just bugs mejust bugs mejust bugs me /rant

As much as I'd want to go for 2, 3's more realistic. Especially since if he isn't having some sort of existential crisis over his sex life he's not about to think or do much that would require narrating about his poor manly maidenhead.

edited 20th Dec '10 1:41:24 PM by Bur

PsychoFreaX Card-Carrying Villain >:D from Transcended Humanity Since: Jan, 2010
#23: Dec 20th 2010 at 4:00:24 PM

@juancarlos 11 Not really, a lot of people can go without them such as some monks or taoists. In fact, those kinds of people are meant to go without that stuff.

edited 20th Dec '10 4:00:39 PM by PsychoFreaX

Help?.. please...
juancarlos11 Since: Aug, 2011
#24: Dec 20th 2010 at 4:42:19 PM

you know addressing it doesn't mean that you have to play it straight. it's just i find it a little hard to swallow that a guy reaches thirty (or was it forty?) without a sex-drive. if you don't like the idea that he masturbates because you think it's Out of Character then justify his not- mastrubation. everyone except Asexuals cares in some way for sex and it's not like the character is avoiding it because he hates sex he just doesn't need it in an emotiaonal way but then again it's just an opinion take it a grain of salt.

It's not exactly naive. And it can happen. But it's tough. And definetly worthwhile.
colbertimposter Since: Dec, 1969
#25: Dec 24th 2010 at 9:07:23 AM

The explanation I use about a character like this is:

He's in too much pain now to champion the luxury of lust. His needs are actual needs, needs differing from the petty excuse for which addicts use the word "needs."

-Sorry if this sounds like a personal attack, juancarlos. It's not meant to be.


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