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The Nonexistent Youth Bill: The Deathknell to All Lolicon

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Nyktos (srahc 84) eltit Since: Jan, 2001
(srahc 84) eltit
#26: Dec 13th 2010 at 10:46:54 AM

@[AOD]: This case is slightly different. I was referring to the general pattern.

Anyway, my personal view on this is that the sooner the governments of the world join in to obliterate this sort of degenerate thought, the better.
This is a horrifying sentence.

edited 13th Dec '10 10:47:54 AM by Nyktos

I guess it is.
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
KillerRabbit Just wondering from In the Ning Nang Nong Since: Jan, 2001
Just wondering
#29: Dec 13th 2010 at 10:52:38 AM

Anyway, my personal view on this is that the sooner the governments of the world join in to obliterate this sort of degenerate thought, the better.

You know, I'm trying to think up something witty to say here. But how do you satirize a sentence so thoroughly Orwellian that it already takes the piss out of itself?

They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams for an instant, then it's night once more
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#30: Dec 13th 2010 at 10:52:41 AM

^I'm beginning to think we should've stopped posting as soon as AOD admitted he was from SA.

edited 13th Dec '10 10:52:57 AM by RedSavant

It's been fun.
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#31: Dec 13th 2010 at 10:54:28 AM

Yeah, [AOD]'s had an account here before most of you. Us? :V

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#32: Dec 13th 2010 at 11:03:47 AM

^^Longevity aside (and I do recall that you're a troper, now, come to think of it), if all we're doing is posting arguments to each other that the contra-bill side mostly agree with and the pro-bill side dismisses with one sentence equating saying drawn lolicon shouldn't be completely banned with supporting child rape, I'm not sure what purpose we're debating for. Obviously neither side is going to change their minds about the issue. Nor, really, should any of us; your views are just as valid as mine, AOD, I just disagree with 'em. That said, debates should be to increase knowledge, not just repeat the same information at each other until one side gets bored.

edited 13th Dec '10 11:06:01 AM by RedSavant

It's been fun.
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#33: Dec 13th 2010 at 11:40:14 AM

Someone linked an article earlier that said that, if the bill is passed, 1/3 of the shops in Akihabara would close overnight, while Akiba would start looking like Detroit. I can't speak to the accuracy of that, in terms of extent, but the basic premise seems accurate. In any case, if Tokyo is made a no-sell for lolicon and less objectionable stuff as well (consider that Bleach would be reclassified as 18+ under this bill, given that Orihime is fifteen through most of the series), then publishers and studios will go elsewhere. That's all there is to it.

It's been fun.
Sparkysharps Since: Jan, 2001
#34: Dec 13th 2010 at 11:55:46 AM

I'm generally opposed to this law, if largely on the basis that any law that makes it more difficult to legally fap to a fictional 17-year-old than it is to legally have sex with a real flesh-and-blood thirteen-year-old  *

is probably not a very well-thought-out law.

silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#35: Dec 13th 2010 at 12:16:51 PM

I have to say, my main worry of this bill is how it affects the relatively tame stuff I like.

Agreed.

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#37: Dec 13th 2010 at 12:29:43 PM

^Interesting. The fact that the study explicitly mentions Japan makes it doubly topical.

^^Thirded.

edited 13th Dec '10 12:30:07 PM by RedSavant

It's been fun.
Anarchy just a medicine seller from Perak, Malaysia Since: Jun, 2010
just a medicine seller
#38: Dec 13th 2010 at 12:32:01 PM

" 'Likewise, I think that pedophilia is not something that should be banned, even though it's morally questionable, because there are so many morally questionable issues that are being portrayed in media.'

"Child porn is an atrocity, a crime against humanity, and destroys the lives and mental well-being of children. You are literally arguing for child rape to continue, and therefore, are morally forfeit."

Sorry, poorly worded statement which made it easy for you to completely take out of context. You completely ignored the general point I was making. By "pedophilia" in the context of my overall argument I meant "sexualized portrayal of minors", with emphasis on "portrayal in fictional media", specifically, "portrayal in anime/manga", which do not involve real children at all. I am COMPLETELY against child porn or actual child rape, or anything that has to do with actual abuse/rape/sexual exploitation of children, in the same way that I am against war, rape, murder, substance abuse etc, but not against the portrayal of war, rape, murder, etc. It's the difference between being against smoking in public/non-smoking designated areas, which I am, and being against smoking in general, even in the privacy of your own home. I am all for banning smoking in public because FUCK, you're contaminating the lungs of people who don't WANT their lungs to be contaminated, damn you! But if you smoke at home, either with adults who have consented to inhaling copious amounts of second hand smoke, or by yourself completely, I'm totally fine with it.

I mean, I think about killing people all the time, when I'm angry, when I'm frustrated. Sometimes I just want to get a machete and start hacking and slashing everybody in sight. Should I be hanged? Thrown in prison for life? No! Because I will never ever actually do it in real life, it's just a fantasy! Likewise, if people just fantasize about raping children, but know that it's wrong and have no intention of actually doing it in real life, is it wrong to have those thoughts? Is it wrong to want to indulge in fantasies that make you happy? No, AS LONG AS YOU'RE NOT HURTING ANYONE. Reading works with a Token Loli in them isn't hurting the loli, or real life children. Reading porn about how a child is brutally raped and impregnated isn't wrong, as long as you know that it's morally abhorrent, as long as you don't actually go out and rape a child. If it all remains within the realm of fantasy, which all anime/manga/doujin naturally are, I'm fine with it. I still think that extreme loli rape hentai is disturbing, just like I find extreme violence against women in eroguro disturbing, but I'm not about to advocate banning it.

By the way, even with the statement taken out of context as it was, it's still inaccurate to say I'm arguing for child rape to continue. Pedophilia, technically, means that you are unable to experience sexual desire for anything other than prepubescent children (well, though, many people like to think of it as anyone who's below 18, which is silly). Having sexual desire for children doesn't equate to the actual BEHAVIOR of having sex with minors, and certainly doesn't equate to raping minors. For example, if I am exclusively attracted to black people in a sexual way, it doesn't necessarily that I'm having sex with black people or that I'm raping black people. And in any case, it's silly to advocate for or be against pedophilia, because it's a paraphilia. You can't be for or against a paraphilia. You can't control a paraphilia. It's not like people who get off on eating shit suddenly decided, "All right! From today onwards I'm going to get rid of all my desire for vanilla sex and start getting orgasms whenever someone shits on my stomach!" You know? You know the example of how people tried to cure homosexuals with aversion therapy? Did that work? My point is, you can't control desire. BUT you can control whether or not you act upon that desire in a harmful way. Which is why pedophiles who rape children should be jailed while pedophiles who ONLY fantasize about them/read about them/draw them in sexualized positions should not be prosecuted, or given therapy if they themselves request therapy.

edited 13th Dec '10 12:44:57 PM by Anarchy

EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#39: Dec 13th 2010 at 12:43:39 PM

nthing the "this bill is horseshit and I hope it fails" sentiment.

Anarchy just a medicine seller from Perak, Malaysia Since: Jun, 2010
just a medicine seller
#40: Dec 13th 2010 at 12:50:20 PM

http://esciencenews.com/articles/2010/11/30/legalizing.child.pornography.linked.lower.rates.child.sex.abuse

What I like about this study is that not only is it cross-cultural (more than 10 countries were involved in the study), but also that the rates of other crimes increased since child pornography were introduced while child sex abuse decreased, which rules out the possibility that child abuse decreased only because crime in general was decreasing.

So, really, by advocating banning child porn, the Moral Guardians are actually attempting to increase rates of child sexual abuse? Now that's a conspiracy theory.

EDIT: Ah, to clarify; I meant child porn that does not involve actual children. Anime/manga/doujins, for example.

edited 13th Dec '10 12:54:20 PM by Anarchy

INUH Since: Jul, 2009
#41: Dec 13th 2010 at 12:52:22 PM

So, really, by advocating banning child porn, the Moral Guardians are actually attempting to increase rates of child sexual abuse? Now that's a conspiracy theory.

No, they're just being idiots.

Infinite Tree: an experimental story
Taelor Don't Forget To Smile from The Paths of Spite Since: Jul, 2009
EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#43: Dec 13th 2010 at 1:08:15 PM

@Anarchy: Um... yeah, that's kind of an important distinction, there.

Zeether Knight of Legend from Mahora (I wish) Since: Jan, 2001
Knight of Legend
#44: Dec 13th 2010 at 1:14:13 PM

The publishers are still against the bill even when it's passed, and the prime minister of Japan is concerned over this.

From Dan Kanemitsu's blog:

In his first personal blog entry since becoming prime minister, Naoto Kan states: “There is another topic I would like to talk about concerning [the strength] of the Japanese brand. Currently there are concerns over the possibility that the Tokyo International Animation Fair could be cancelled due to controversies related to the healthy development of youth issues. Healthy development of youth is an important issue. At the same time, it is important that Japanese animation is broadcast to a global audience. I urge all parties involved to try to work toward preventing a situation where an international animation fair cannot be held within Tokyo.”

According to what is stated on Naoto Kan’s blog, this is the first time he is writing an entry himself on a subject that concerns him. Every other entry is written by his staff. The blog entry also talks about discussions he had with rice farmers in Yamaga Prefecture, but he ends his first personally written post on worrying about if next year’s Tokyo International Animation Fair takes place.

Now the Prime Minister is personally expressing his concerns over what’s happening.

This is not a the end. This is the beginning. Of what, I don’t know.

They're not taking any crap. If they want to work something out it's going to involve the bill either being modified or repealed.

edited 13th Dec '10 1:15:52 PM by Zeether

Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar who could drink you under the table~
Anarchy just a medicine seller from Perak, Malaysia Since: Jun, 2010
just a medicine seller
#45: Dec 13th 2010 at 1:31:31 PM

"The CBLDF will defend your First Amendment right as an adult to make lines on paper, to draw, to write, to sell, to publish, and now, to own comics. And that's what makes the kind of work you don't like, or don't read, or work that you do not feel has artistic worth or redeeming features worth defending. It's because the same laws cover the stuff you like and the stuff you find icky, wherever your icky line happens to be: the law is a big blunt instrument that makes no fine distinctions, and because you only realise how wonderful absolute freedom of speech is the day you lose it." - Neil Gaiman

/discussion

EDIT: Wow. The PRIME MINISTER of Japan started writing in his blog just because of this issue? Damn. Revenue generated by anime/manga is reaalllly important for Japan's economics, isn't it?

edited 13th Dec '10 1:39:02 PM by Anarchy

elemcee Since: Dec, 2009
#46: Dec 13th 2010 at 1:48:14 PM

The idea of the law being a big blunt instrument sounds apt, to me. It sums up why I would be worried about this bill.

And, yeah, it would be difficult to clamp down too hard on such a lucrative avenue. People do cough up for it.

edited 13th Dec '10 1:49:01 PM by elemcee

WORLDTree Since: Dec, 1969
#47: Dec 13th 2010 at 4:47:21 PM

Like most bills and political things, people are blowing this out of proportion/ not actually understanding what's going on, the bill will move marked manga to an "Adult section", nothing will be banned, many things will be marked but you can't buy porn in most average stores either, doesn't mean porn isn't huge, this will essentially be as effective as the M rating was in preventing Call of Duty from falling into the hands of children.

And funny all the people who previously were bashing Anime and Manga for having too much sex and fanservice are now flipping out at the prospect of it being gone.

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#48: Dec 13th 2010 at 4:48:42 PM

I'm more concerned with the anti violence part.

If what I'm hearing is true (although details are admittedly confusing) any violence is banned...

No Berserk makes Thorn go something something...

elemcee Since: Dec, 2009
#49: Dec 13th 2010 at 4:50:43 PM

Nothing is being banned, just restricted.

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#50: Dec 13th 2010 at 4:51:40 PM

I know, but in the media, making something 18+ is pretty much a death sentence.


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