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GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#2101: Jun 20th 2014 at 10:32:54 PM

Still, I had no idea that there were so many techniques that prevent you from getting hurt.

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#2102: Jun 21st 2014 at 6:33:34 AM

Not so much prevent you from getting hurt but if you do them incorrectly you will get hurt. You have to remember you are applying force to another body with your own body. That force acts on you as much as it does them.

That is part of why body hardening is an important part of martial arts.

Who watches the watchmen?
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#2103: Jun 23rd 2014 at 2:45:39 PM

GAP, I know you asked me privately, but I'd like to post that PM response I sent you here in case anyone else has something to add to it or refute.

So, to answer your question somewhat briefly, the "right" way to fight is going to depend on a multitude of factors including the legal environment, social conditions and overall objective of using fighting techniques in the first place. For example, a military hand-to-hand combat system will be geared more toward asocial violence whereas a civilian-oriented self-defense course will emphasize techniques the reflect social violence.

The big difference between social violence and asocial violence can best be illustrated through the difference between domestic altercations among peers in one's social circle and enemy combatants or the subject of a premeditated murder. Asocial violence emphasizes destroying an enemy as efficiently and as thoroughly as possible whereas social violence deals more closely with non-lethal conflict de-escalation and conflict resolution under legal and moral parameters outlined in a civilian environment. The rightness of fighting heavily depends on why you are fighting, and many martial artists make the huge mistake of presuming that one type of conflict resolution can be blindly plugged into any situation in any context. Military personnel are trained to kill their enemies, and so long as they are subject to the rules and customs of war, they can basically do anything fro bayoneting their enemy to crushing their throats with the heels of the boots. Consider the structural contrast between MCMAP and sport Taekwondo. Whatever enables them to complete their mission is what they will use, and sport-based techniques, while fine in their own context, aren't suitable for a close-quarters battle scenario.

A police officer (to an extent), a potential rape victim or two or more inebriated individuals are not in an asocial mindset. Domestic violence often occurs among people who know each other at least on a marginally casual level. Our laws and customs outside of war will reflect this closely, but if murder statistics and our criminal justice system are any indication, this is the ideal and not the reality. There's a big difference between using a left jab to stop your wasted buddy from cracking you over the head with his bottle of Jack Daniels and having an enemy combatant you've never met charging at you with an automatic military-grade weapon with every intention of killing you.

An inebriated buddy is striking at you because he wants to show dominance and personal affirmation, and one of the reasons why violence quickly escalates in social gatherings (especially when mind-altering substances are involved) is, among other reasons, because human beings have fragile egos, and we like to nurse our wounded pride by demonstrating our ability to perform aggressively in front of our peers. Asocial violence is often more utilitarian, and the "right" way to fight often involves simply killing your enemy or neutralizing them in such a way that they no longer have the ability to wage war. Again, there are rules to be found in both mindsets such as the Geneva Convention and misdemeanor demerit points used for violent offenders in criminal proceedings that themselves will vary from state to state and from country to country.

Of course, it's much more complex and stratified than what I'm saying, but I chose war and bar scenes as two examples to better illustrate the extent of those major differences.

edited 23rd Jun '14 2:46:35 PM by Aprilla

IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#2104: Jun 23rd 2014 at 4:41:46 PM

And also, I would add, there's also the difference in philosophy behind each style which is influenced by culture and circumstances. Even amongst military manuals used to train soldiers a British one is different from a German one, and one designed to churn out commandoes ASAP on a massive scale is different to one written in peace time (I'm thinking Fairbairn vs other manuals).

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#2105: Jun 23rd 2014 at 7:31:49 PM

Aprilla; Pretty solid actually. One point of contention. Unlike it's predecessor programs, Line Combat I and Line Combat II, MCMAP also has components for less then lethal fighting for social situations or situations that might fall into a sort of grey area between asocial and social violence. That was decided was one of the key needs for MCMAP was a more flexible less then lethal option than what was not afforded by the Line Combat Program. From what I had heard from the hand to instructors part of that arose from the fact that Line combat was narrowly focused on the asocial type of violence. It was built from the ground up as a tool for killing or disabling an enemy with few or limited options for dealing with social violence.

I am very certain you can figure out the problems that arose. For the sake of explaining for the others, what they had found out was happening was Marines outside of combat oriented violence were having trouble applying just enough force to stop a violent interaction or using too much and either seriously injuring and even occasionally killing the other person. The other side of the coin is when they actively refrained from using their training and wound up getting hurt or overwhelmed from a lack of viable skills and a mind set to deal with those situations or had to resort to things learned elsewhere or just plain brawling.

Parts of MCMAP cover not only the battlefield view of asocial violence but dealing with social violence as well. Largely because it is impossible to not interact with other people civilian and military alike in a social situation it was seen as an important change to the hand to hand for the marines. This covers restraining people so it stops the fight without resorting to drastic measures like breaking arms and legs. It uses PPCT, joint manipulation, rapidly rendering an aggressive opponent unconscious, and other techniques. It also does cover to some extent handling violence in social situations. The preference for social situations is that violence should be the last resort and is reflected in the idea of appropriate escalation when de-escalation fails. There is also training from NCO's and officers on how to behave and handle civilians when a marine is out and about on their own.

Another important area for MCMAP was giving Marine guards and sentries a more flexible tool set if you will for dealing with aggressive civilian encounters. This is sometimes considered a grey area depending on situation. A marine guarding a high security asset is more likely to be required to use lethal force then say a marine guarding the front gate. It also depends on the interaction the guard is under. A guard dealing with pushy and aggressive unarmed civilian would react differently to a armed civilian who is trying to attack him with say a combat knife or club.

For social situations like a Marine in the bar or on the town they are usually instructed to try and avoid trouble. If trouble happens restraint is the idea not pounding the other guy into paste. They are expected to act enough to stop the fight without causing serious injury as much as possible.

Who watches the watchmen?
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#2106: Jun 24th 2014 at 5:28:26 PM

What do you guys think of this?

Who watches the watchmen?
Explosivo25 How fleeting... from Beach City Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
How fleeting...
#2107: Aug 2nd 2014 at 7:01:44 AM

Derrrrp. I forgot to tell you guys, but I HAVE A BLACK BELT NOW.

I don’t even know anymore.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#2108: Aug 2nd 2014 at 7:12:23 AM

Congrats. In what style? Sport or traditional?

Who watches the watchmen?
Explosivo25 How fleeting... from Beach City Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
How fleeting...
#2109: Aug 2nd 2014 at 8:14:12 AM

Taekwondo, so I think sport. My dojo does things really weird, so yeah.

I actually got it in June, but I forgot to say so until now because I'm dumb like that.

edited 2nd Aug '14 8:19:05 AM by Explosivo25

I don’t even know anymore.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#2110: Aug 2nd 2014 at 8:44:17 AM

Cool beans. Ever been to a tourney or contest of any sort?

Who watches the watchmen?
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#2111: Aug 5th 2014 at 7:43:33 AM

Sometimes I wonder which would combination would be better in a MMA fight; boxing + wrestling vs muay thai + jiu-jitsu.

Of course, it would all depend on person and environment. In America, I'd assume that it would be better to go with boxling, simply because boxing and wrestling have bigger training infrastructure. Also, from what I've seen, both from my (admittedly short) personal experience and from watching UFC, PRIDE, etc, wrestlers tend to have stronger tackle than jiu-jitsu practitioners and they have really powerful groundwork as well.

On the other hand, MTJJ have kicks and JJ has wider locks and other joint manipulations. Hmm...

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#2112: Aug 5th 2014 at 2:41:46 PM

I dunno. Both combinations look very even to me. It would probably becomes a matter of which side manages to exploit the other's weakness first. (From memory JJ don't do throws or not actually spar often, while kicking has the advantage of bigger ranger and difficult for the boxer to deal with etc etc etc) Would be very interesting to watch that's for certain.

Whoever loses, the audience (we) wins. tongue

edited 5th Aug '14 2:44:54 PM by IraTheSquire

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#2113: Sep 3rd 2014 at 8:37:48 AM

Okay, so I'm writing a supernatural fighting story (for those of you who also visits Troper Fencing Academy, yes, it's that same story).

One of the characters is a martial artist, whose fighting style is a mix of muay thai and capoeira - basically heavily utilizes kicking and acrobatics, along with elbows and knees.

Then he awakens power to control friction.

Initially he realizes that he can make people slip and deflect blows. But he considers that kind of move to be "dirty" (he's not very smart) and wants to find a way to use it for more offensively, as in, making his attacks stronger, instead of giving people disadvantages.

What are some way that a kicker can use the power to control friction to hit faster or harder?

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
TomoeMichieru Samurai Troper from Newnan, GA (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Mu
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#2115: Sep 3rd 2014 at 8:59:22 AM

I thought about that too, but does air friction make your blow really that weaker?

(I just remembered that you wrote that Cracked article about Superpowers Ruined by Science, which I'm reading right now, actually)

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
TomoeMichieru Samurai Troper from Newnan, GA (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Mu
Samurai Troper
#2116: Sep 3rd 2014 at 9:01:01 AM

I cringe at that article - I could have done soooo much better with it. But it may not be that much of an advantage, but every little bit, right? Or how about increasing friction with the ground beneath the kicking leg to provide more force at the same time, if he has that level of control?

edited 3rd Sep '14 9:02:11 AM by TomoeMichieru

Swordplay and writing blog. Purveyor of weeaboo fightin' magic.
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#2117: Sep 3rd 2014 at 9:02:02 AM

Nah mate, it's good. It's still amusing, and this is after reading like 5 times. grin

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#2118: Sep 3rd 2014 at 4:14:23 PM

If you change him into a wrestler instead of a striker, his powers would become a lot more useful (you grip me, I reduce friction and slip away alike an eel. I grip/pin you, I increase the friction so you aren't getting away).

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#2119: Sep 3rd 2014 at 4:22:10 PM

Ah yeah, I'm actually aware of that one. The thing is, he loathes grappling as well.

There is actually a guy whose fighting style is wrestling and BJJ. His power is dismantling machines with his fist, and sometimes he's jealous of the whole friction control power because it would make him so much stronger.

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#2120: Sep 20th 2014 at 7:27:13 PM

You're probably not throwing an uppercut properly

Nice read. Check out the rest of the website when you have more time.

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#2121: Oct 18th 2014 at 9:54:39 PM

Martial arts fail!

What's with traditional martial arts and breaking?

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
maxwellelvis Mad Scientist Wannabe from undisclosed location Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: In my bunk
Mad Scientist Wannabe
#2122: Oct 18th 2014 at 10:01:28 PM

Something to do with pain control I think.

Anyways, that's why I prefer to talk my way out of a situation, or run away.

Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#2123: Oct 18th 2014 at 11:40:26 PM

That's the preference especially for those with training.

Because martial arts training gives you an idea of how bad physical confrontations can get.

Yewleaf Anti-conformism through conformity Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
Anti-conformism through conformity
#2124: Oct 19th 2014 at 10:27:30 AM

According to an old sensei I had it's because people instinctively tend to slow down or stop a hit just before it really makes contact so they don't hurt themselves. Like pretty much everything in martial arts though there's a bit of debate. By the way hi everyone!

edited 19th Oct '14 10:28:14 AM by Yewleaf

~Hey Yew! Don't tell me there's no hope at aaaaallllllll!~
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#2125: Oct 19th 2014 at 5:37:51 PM

Or hurt another person.

No really. According to the author of On Killing, apparently humans, like all animals, have an aversion to hurting or killing their own kind. Apparently this is a BIG problem in the military where the combatants just don't actually engage.

In historical fencing, one of the key reasons why we wear protection is so that the other person can make the attack properly during practice.

edited 19th Oct '14 5:39:20 PM by IraTheSquire


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