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LolipodDistortion HIP HOP HIPSTER from Austin, Texas Since: Aug, 2010
HIP HOP HIPSTER
#251: May 30th 2011 at 2:33:36 PM

It's a sad, sad place where fighting and beating the living hell out of each other is treated as fun
Well it is.

Underneath the bridge The tarp has sprung a leak And the animals I've trapped have all become my pets
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#252: May 30th 2011 at 3:07:47 PM

[up][up] Who said anything about Transformer being more realistic? I said that none of them makes any damn sense, but at least Transformer, at least to me, seems as if Michael Bay KNOWS that he's making a movie about , like you said, giant robots from space, beating the living shit out of each other.

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#253: May 30th 2011 at 9:36:05 PM

Anyone here willing to answer a question about kenjutsu?

In most depictions and methods concerning kenjutsu, one's sword ends at least 45 degrees from the central axis of the body after a strike. Like |/ or |\. Isn't this inefficient? This ensures that an uninterrupted strike (such as a voided or dodged one) ends up on the outside lines rather than on the inside. A good swordsman will fight on the inside as much as possible, so it seems to me that kenjutsu just invites death.

Swordsman TroperReclaiming The BladeWatch
zeroplusalpha The World Is Mine from behind the 7th Door Since: Apr, 2009
The World Is Mine
#254: May 30th 2011 at 9:47:30 PM

In most depictions and methods concerning kenjutsu, one's sword ends at least 45 degrees from the central axis of the body after a strike.

Are you sure about this?

The 45 degree strike is only for the kesa-giri (diagonal slash, starting from the shoulder), but as far as I know the sword should return to centre-guard position immediately after.

It may appear to look slightly angled, but that could be because of the stance, which isn't a square stance: you're standing with your torso to the side to present less of target and to keep your vulnerable areas away from incoming offensives.

(I am no expert, but I've had some rudimentary training in iaido.)

edited 30th May '11 9:48:00 PM by zeroplusalpha

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MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#255: May 30th 2011 at 10:05:06 PM

To be fair, I don't have first-hand experience in kenjutsu, kendo, aikido or iaido. From my reading, though, it does appear is if strikes are designed to end up on the outside.

What I could be witnessing, however, it staggered training. It might be a case of teaching the correct method of cutting with power and teaching restraint and control separately. Although that doesn't strike me as an overly Japanese method.

Swordsman TroperReclaiming The BladeWatch
Blackmoon Since: May, 2009
#256: May 30th 2011 at 10:09:47 PM

A proper strike will end with the sword outside just as a matter of follow-through, but you don't want it to be too far from the center of the body, and the tip should still be pointing roughly towards your centerline just for self-defense purposes.

Cutting with power is definitely not something you want to do with a katana, though. Finesse is more important, since you can deliver a powerful cut without upper-body strength— I would know on this one. [lol] Strength is secondary, mostly kept to the purpose of being able to defend against incoming blows and hold your sword up.

MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#257: May 30th 2011 at 10:15:41 PM

and the tip should still be pointing roughly towards your centerline just for self-defense purposes

This is a good point that I entirely ignored. A katana's curve means you can't threaten with the tip by holding the hilt on the centreline, so it must be slightly angled and strikes have to go a little further to accomodate this.

Since I'm used to European two-handed longsword, I'm entirely used to the hilt, blade and point lining up perfectly. Blargh. x_X

Swordsman TroperReclaiming The BladeWatch
Blackmoon Since: May, 2009
#258: May 30th 2011 at 10:17:40 PM

And the method of cutting is totally different because of that curve, which factors back into finesse-versus-power, but that's a discussion for a different time.

MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#259: May 30th 2011 at 10:21:23 PM

Or Is It

As far as my understanding goes, European cutting and Japanese cutting are opposed concepts irrespective of the type of blade used. German techniques, for instance, use the dominant hand as the primary source of power with the off-hand supporting and guiding. If I'm correct, then the Japanese use the opposite configuration.

When I started German longsword, I found myself using a fulcrum effect like one might expect of a curved blade, but as my technique improved I found that it just didn't work as well as simpler cutting for a straight edge.

Swordsman TroperReclaiming The BladeWatch
zeroplusalpha The World Is Mine from behind the 7th Door Since: Apr, 2009
The World Is Mine
#260: May 30th 2011 at 10:24:59 PM

The argument can be made that power comes from finesse, specifically finesse of motion. It's not a million miles away from playing a musical instrument, to be honest.

An oft-quoted way of describing it (at least in Chinese martial arts schools) is that any technique requiring any kind of power should be executed with the effortless energy "[of] a stone thrown down a well".

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Blackmoon Since: May, 2009
#261: May 30th 2011 at 10:25:40 PM

I've never been taught that either hand is supposed to do anything different; I was just instructed to use them together except during drawing strikes where I'd be using only the dominant hand by necessity. What I meant more was that in my experience, Western swords use force and a fulcrum sort of principle to cleave things. Katana (and, for that matter, a lot of other Eastern swords like the jian or dao) use a slicing technique— involves pulling the sword across the flesh, sort of like cutting with a big knife or something.

MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#262: May 30th 2011 at 10:39:38 PM

It's not a million miles away from playing a musical instrument, to be honest.

This is really the way I've always seen it. Learning the sword seems really familiar, probably because any musician should feel at home with the methods and concepts.

^ Personally, I don't find that the fulcrum method is that great for straight swords, at least the way it tends to be explained and emphasised. A little bit of pull on the off-hand works nicely, but as a contributing factor rather than a major one.

As for the merits of cuts and slices, I'll defer to your experience since I've never handled an eastern sword. It does seem that a katana's shape and speed potential would support deep, cleaving cuts very well though.

Swordsman TroperReclaiming The BladeWatch
Blackmoon Since: May, 2009
#263: May 30th 2011 at 10:42:02 PM

Well, I don't know a damn thing about Western swords, all things considered, so we're even. [lol] Katana are actually piss-poor for cleaving, all things considered; the edges are too brittle to support it, among other reasons.

TomoeMichieru Samurai Troper from Newnan, GA (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Mu
Samurai Troper
#264: Jun 4th 2011 at 6:51:21 PM

You don't want to be committing that much power to a single katana strike when you're stationary. Generally my experience is that you want the sword to end up as close to the embusen (centre line) as possible when you finish the cut. After all, you're not trying to invoke Diagonal Cut, just do enough damage to kill your enemy, which a cut to the centre of the body certainly will.

Swordplay and writing blog. Purveyor of weeaboo fightin' magic.
TomoeMichieru Samurai Troper from Newnan, GA (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Mu
Samurai Troper
#265: Jun 4th 2011 at 6:59:41 PM

And kenjutsuka are very aware of that weakness with the katana - virtually all its defenses are designed to counter overcommitted strikes.

Example 1:

Shidachi and uchidachi (attacker and defender, respectively) start in chudan-gamae (centre stance). Shidachi attacks with shomen-uchi (direct downward cut). Uchidachi moves back, lifting his sword into jodan (high stance) and stepping forward with shomen-uchi whilst shidachi's sword is still low.

Example 2:

Shidachi steps in with shomen-uchi. Uchidachi moves forward and to the left and lifts the sword so it points down across his body from above his head so the attacking sword slides off and down to his right. He uses the momentum from the impact to bring his katana in a full circle into jodan-gamae and, being at an angle, counters with his own shomen-uchi, targeting either shomen or kote (wrists).

edited 4th Jun '11 7:03:23 PM by TomoeMichieru

Swordplay and writing blog. Purveyor of weeaboo fightin' magic.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#266: Jun 4th 2011 at 7:05:03 PM

The katana isn't designed for cleaving to begin with. It is designed to create those nasty deep heavily bleeding cuts. They can cut through bone if need be but slicing the flesh is more efficient.

I have heard that a katana cut is more like drawing it through the flesh like you would well a razor then shoving the edge in like with a meat clever.

Who watches the watchmen?
TomoeMichieru Samurai Troper from Newnan, GA (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Mu
Samurai Troper
#267: Jun 4th 2011 at 7:22:11 PM

[up]Especially if you're doing a draw-cut in close range, which the katana is awesome at.

Swordplay and writing blog. Purveyor of weeaboo fightin' magic.
BrayPhantom from Cloudsdale Since: Jul, 2010
#268: Jun 20th 2011 at 11:28:21 PM

Sorry to post on such an old thread, but it was the only one I could find to post about this in.

Tomorrow I am taking my first Krav Maga class. The place I am taking from has a lot of different classes like judo/jujitsu, mma, karate, Boxing/kickboxing, and Mui Thai. My two main reasons for taking martial arts is to learn practical self defense and for fitness. Is Krav Maga the best for that?

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#269: Jun 21st 2011 at 3:36:21 AM

Again there is no such thing as any one best martial art. Some are more practical then others. Krav Maga if your learning an honest defense/combat class will be effective at both.

edited 21st Jun '11 3:36:33 AM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#270: Jun 21st 2011 at 5:30:59 AM

Krav maga has a heavy emphasis on efficiency.

Say what else you want about it, but that's all you need to know about a martial art. If it's efficient, it'll work if you do it correctly and with proper intent.

No martial art will help you if you can't be decisive on your own in a fight, though. So when it comes to defending yourself, don't have doubt.

If a martial art is good, then it'll work as well as any other good martial art. As mentioned above, there's no "best". There's only what works and what doesn't work. For a more rounded perspective, though, I'd suggest you take up another martial art somewhere along the line. The human body works the same across all martial arts, so often the largest difference between martial arts is the temperament, or the perspective you fight from. You'll get different ideas of the most effective technique to employ in whatever situation, and you'll be able to decide which works best for you.

Martial arts can be incredibly rewarding, even if you never have to employ them in a serious fight.

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zeroplusalpha The World Is Mine from behind the 7th Door Since: Apr, 2009
The World Is Mine
#271: Jun 22nd 2011 at 1:13:24 AM

If there were a single, "best" martial art it would surely be sumo.

Don't see very many sumo wrestlers getting mugged.

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TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#272: Jun 22nd 2011 at 2:13:43 AM

I'd imagine most robbers are skittish of pissing of the guy that crush them by sitting on them.

That crooks tend to avoid anything that looks like it has a lot of fight.

Who watches the watchmen?
MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#273: Jun 22nd 2011 at 2:18:28 AM

If there were a single, "best" martial art it would surely be sumoBloßfechten.

Fix'd.

Swordsman TroperReclaiming The BladeWatch
zeroplusalpha The World Is Mine from behind the 7th Door Since: Apr, 2009
The World Is Mine
#274: Jun 22nd 2011 at 2:23:30 AM

^The German equivalent of Miyamoto Musashi?

How is this guy not an anime character yet? Or given his own movie?

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MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#275: Jun 22nd 2011 at 2:26:36 AM

I have no idea, all I know is that there is no justice.

Swordsman TroperReclaiming The BladeWatch

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