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what makes evil (un)cool?

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RighteousIndignation Since: Mar, 2010
#1: Dec 9th 2010 at 10:07:02 AM

hi!

my friends and me watched funny games yesterday and we ended up discussing what makes villains, as abhorrent as they may be, attractive or simply cool - or the opposite. all three of us, usually quite prone to evil is cool, had absolutely no positive feelings towards the two villains of the film.

so the question can be specific - why didn't we like those two villains (we "liked" them as we "liked" the movie - as far as you can "like" a movie that messes with you like that but... whatever)

or - better for everybody who doesn't know funny games - what generally makes evil cool or not cool?

still thinking about it led me to my first post here in the forum :)

(i won't spoiler the plot, i might spoiler what "sort of film" it is like details about the soundtrack etc)

several ideas we had, but that didn't really lead to a real solution, especially cause our 2 guys should have met enough cool/uncool criteria we found out to be cool

- badassery: if a character is badass you will find him cool, even if he is evil (darth vader, vidal from pan's labyrinth etc). as there is no real action in the movie we don't know if our guys are badasses

- being sucessful at what they do: you will end up admiring them for being so clever at manipulating the heroes, etc - many magnificent bastards will be cool. (hannibal lecter, landa, johan liebert... etc. ) our 2 villains here are really successful

- being witty, a deadpan snarker etc: what they say makes them cool also should apply here

- music: the evil deeds are underlayed by nice/cool/whatever music. like in clockwork orange, say. in funny games there is (nearly) no music. there isn't in no country for old men either, though, and we found chigurh quite cool

- the heroes are even less cool

- screentime: the less, the less chance you have to find them cool or interesting(?)

what makes a villain uncool

- being whiny

- being ugly (not necessarily of course, but good looks and/or looking cool help)

- being stupid

- being weak

our guys where none of the above

- you like the nice guys so much you really want them to win(?) -> may not be a factor at all cause there are enough movies where i root and feel for the good guys but still like the bad guys.

so, any more ideas?

edited 9th Dec '10 10:11:17 AM by RighteousIndignation

If everything you try works, you aren't trying hard enough
Vorpy Unstoppable Sex Goddess from from from from from from from from from Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Two-timing
Unstoppable Sex Goddess
#2: Dec 11th 2010 at 5:27:58 AM

Attitudes. The villains can generally be liked if you understand why they are being evil, how they got there, or if they have a very attractive presentation, aesthetic or otherwise.

  • If a villain as an annoying/smug attitude it will annoy the audience enough to get them to not like them. Boring Invincible Villain also gets annoying as well and can help. Also, if they have a purposely annoying trait about them it works, say, a high pitched voice, inflated body parts for no apparent reason, horrible lines, or some other trait.

edited 11th Dec '10 5:29:15 AM by Vorpy

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RighteousIndignation Since: Mar, 2010
#3: Dec 14th 2010 at 6:14:32 AM

Also, if they have a purposely annoying trait about them it works, say, a high pitched voice, inflated body parts for no apparent reason, horrible lines, or some other trait.
good point, our villains had some annoying details to them, that were creepy, but more annoying than cool.

edited 14th Dec '10 6:15:01 AM by RighteousIndignation

If everything you try works, you aren't trying hard enough
spambot from Space Since: Sep, 2010
#4: Dec 16th 2010 at 9:51:37 PM

Cool: Sunglasses, Popped collars, Bling

Uncool: Tv Tropes T-Shirt

Fact.

YouKeepUsingThatWord Since: Dec, 1969
#5: Dec 17th 2010 at 8:50:06 AM

I see you had a ? next to your screen-time point. For good reason. There's often diminishing returns the more your villain is on-screen, and sometimes it's counter-productive.

I think there's also genre involved. Michael Haneke in making Funny Games was trying to make something that disturbed people. George Lucas making Star Wars was trying to make something that's fun to watch, so he has a much lighter touch as to the results of Darth Vader's actions.

DigitalMadness from North Carolina Since: Aug, 2009
#6: Jan 24th 2011 at 5:51:17 PM

I think if the actions the villain takes have realistic consequences (ie., they kill someone, and their family mourns their death in a way that doesn't involve a Roaring Rampage Of Revenge), then that definitely takes away any attraction they might have pretty fast. If they go to the level of being Complete Monsters, too, that helps.

edited 24th Jan '11 5:52:43 PM by DigitalMadness

BlackWolfe Viewer Gender Confusion? from Lost in Austin Since: Jun, 2010
#7: Jan 25th 2011 at 6:21:38 AM

Isn't Funny Games the one where the villains cheat when they're losing by pulling out a remote for the movie?

Edit: After checking the page, I see that it is. Screw that movie.

edited 25th Jan '11 6:24:08 AM by BlackWolfe

But soft! What rock through yonder window breaks? It is a brick! And Juliet is out cold.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#8: Jan 27th 2011 at 9:12:45 PM

[up][up] That's it right there. The best way to make your villains uncool is to depict them as realistically as possible. As the list of reasons for Evil Is Cool suggests, most reasons people find villains cool are either escapist or aesthetic in origin. Villains generally have cooler aesthetics then the heroes (I mean, look at The Empire in Star Wars), and as long as the consequences of the villain's actions aren't shown in too much detail, the right villain can make mass-murder look stylish. Generally, only when evil is actually shown in detail, without benefit of the Villainy Discretion Shot or anything similar, will it be clearly uncool to (most) of the audience.

edited 27th Jan '11 9:13:43 PM by nrjxll

NathanielTheSeeker Since: Jun, 2010
#9: Jan 28th 2011 at 12:49:13 PM

Villains can be attractive if they're really witty, charming, charismatic or otherwise have many appealing qualities. Being Affably Evil obviously helps a lot and humanizing qualities in general.

Of course, having a villain cross the Moral Event Horizon can make them uncool. Not always, 'cause even the MEH -page itself states we can still enjoy them as a villain. It's the style of how they go about it.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#10: Jan 28th 2011 at 6:38:33 PM

[up] That's part of what I mean about aesthetics. As far as the MEH, again, I think it comes down to how much focus the villain's crossing of it gets, although this is a case of Trope Decay - as I understand it, Moral Event Horizon was originally supposed to mean something that causes the villain to lose all sympathy in the eyes of the audience, though OTOH a villain doesn't need to be at all sympathetic to be cool. But any villain whose actions are sufficiently vile and dwelt on realistically will likely be hated by the audience, no matter how attractive he/she is.

edited 28th Jan '11 9:31:20 PM by nrjxll

NathanielTheSeeker Since: Jun, 2010
#11: Jan 29th 2011 at 10:13:08 AM

Aren't some villains ironically cool because they're so unrelenting, frightening, disturbing and straightforward evil?

Perhaps it's sometimes also the matter of dramatizing. Mundanely vile actions shown are those that remind us of similar people in real life and thus make us think of a villain in a similar light: disgusting pieces of trash that ought to be wiped off the face of the earth.

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