Lord of the Rings

One should keep in mind that The Hobbit was written around 20 years after Tolkien's WWI service, and The Lord of the Rings a dozen years after that. If anything most directly reflects his war experiences, it is probably what became The Silmarillion, since he wrote the first form of those stories at that time he was having those experiences.

The Great War was the event that shook the whole world to the core, and its fallout was still felt several generations after.

It doesn't matter if it was 20 or 40 years after the War, because World War I was the single defining event of Tolkien's life and most of his contemporaries (until WW 2 started, anyway). He lost most of his childhood friends to it, saw his beloved English countryside ravaged in preparations for it - these kinds of consequences are still felt no matter how much time has passed.

LOTR is not an allegory for the Great War(s), true, but the influence the War had on its author is undeniable and almost palable in its very narrative.

And the War of the Ring was also a world-changing conflict on a fundamental level. It's going to draw comparisons regardless of artist's intent.

I'm by no means claiming that WWI didn't have any effect on him or his writings, just that it might be helpful to remember that The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings were written at a certain chronological distance, when he had had some time to reflect on those world-shaking events and see some of their consequences.

No doubt any future reader of a work I write now will point out that 9/11 and the War on Terror has been a major event in my lifetime and must affect any work that I produce, but it has been 18 years since 9/11, and my perspective on it now of necessity must be different than it was when I wrote things in, say, 2002.

Edited by Bense on Feb 25th 2019 at 10:36:15 AM

Still, surely 9/11 have changed how you view terrorism, and (assuming you are a US citizen) your sense of safety, perhaps even invulnerability.

Of course it did. But a person and their perspective changes quite a bit from their mid-twenties to their mid-forties. The biggest world changer for me in that time was my marriage and having kids. That has certainly affected my life much more than 9/11 did.

The problem with your comparison is that you didn't actively participate in 9/11 or in the War on Terror (from what you indicated, at least). Tolkien has the key difference that he actually fought in WWI (and had his sons serve in WWII but that's another matter) and then went on to write a story about a world war of sorts. Some parallels are self-evident (the dead marshes and no man's land, Tolkien's absolute hatred for industrialized warfare and Saruman's war machines, e.t.c).

I agree that it would be wrong to boil down Tolkien's inspirations to just WWI, but it's undeniable fighting in it impacted him immensely in writing Lord of the Rings, at least as much as the old Celtic/Breton myths, Catholicism, experiences with nature conservatism and romance with Edith did.

At the heart of things, isn't everyone influenced by their experiences in life? Especially ones that affect you personally? If you're creating something, your personal life is bound to influence it. I think that Tolkien wrote some damn fine stories, and regardless of whether it was inspired by WWI, personal life or what have you, the end result is stories that so many can relate to and enjoy.

Edited by Aaymeirah on Feb 25th 2019 at 8:50:18 AM

I don't think anyone is arguing with that.

Okay.

As far as Lot R knockoffs go, Willow was pretty good.

I think one of it's main problems was it's blatant similarity to the Lord of the Rings movies. If the producers weren't so very focused on making a fantasy film a la Peter Jackson's middle earth, it would have scrapped it's way by on it's own.

Well, given that today is International Women's Day, also known as International Eowyn's Day because she is just that awesome:

What a lass.

In tangentially related news, Tweets from Amazon seem to confirm the Amazon LOTR series will take place during the War of the Last Alliance.

Edited by Gaon on Mar 8th 2019 at 6:03:46 AM

People who only watch the movies are always so surprised to find out that she only figures very late in the book, and women are often relegated to the background. Lot R is a lot of things, but feminist it ain't, I'm afraid.

That depends on your definition of "feminist". By modern standards it is very outdated, but one could reasonably call it Fair for Its Day. Despite the low number of female characters, the ones that do show up are intriguingly complex and ahead of their times a lot of the time. Galadriel addresses and subverts various sexist tropes of her character archetype, namely the idea that her place as a woman of power can only mean she's a beguiling witch or a angel of light, and she turns out to out to be both far nobler than the former but far darker than the latter (in other words, a well-rounded character).

Éowyn (the female warrior kept down by her gender in Rohan's society that ends up as the Bewulf equivalent via subverting those societal expectations) and, surprisingly, Lothbelia Sackville-Baggins (the shrill old lady who turns out to be made of sterner stuff than what was first expected and becomes fully heroic) are also examples.

Eowyn an ersatz Beowulf? You'll have to explain that one. I didn't see her ripping off anyone's arm, nor did she die in a dragon battle.

Maybe it was fair for it's day, but looking at Lord of the Rings through a modern eye, I'm not certain it even passes the Bechdel test.

It doesn't even get close (I'm not sure two women were onscreen at the same time, much less talk to each other), but most modern works don't either. The Bechdel Test is about trends, not about individual works.

Rohan, as the proto-Germanic culture, is closely paralleled with Bewulf in general. Theodén's decaying hall echoes King Hrothgar's decaying hall from Bewulf, and both decays coming from a external evil. I think it is researcher Jennifer Neville (in her essay "Women in Lord of the Rings") who points out that, during this broad parallel narrative to Bewulf, the closest parallel to Bewulf slaying Grendel is Eówyn's slaying of the Witch-King of Angmar. And that deed is is not done by Aragorn, Theodén, Éomer or any other traditional masculine figure, but by Eowyn and Merry. Jennifer Neville points out that the LOTR has a broad theme that traditional masculine martial of the more macho ideals of classic Germanic/Saxon literature (i.e Bewulf) tends to be, at best, a diversion. The real heroism comes from a place of fragility and emotional warmth found in the Hobbits and Éowyn. So she's Bewulf backwards: rather than the coming conquering macho hero, she's the female societal outcast, but it is for her outcast status (fighting against the norms of her society) that she manages to rise above them and conquer the Witch-King.

Edited by Gaon on Mar 9th 2019 at 7:54:16 AM

It could work, but I suspect we could find better fitting analogs for that.

By the way, it is Beowulf, not Bewulf.

Re: Amazon LOTR series:

There's a certain star-shaped island on one of the promo Middle-Earth maps. Could we be getting an Akallabeth series?!

If we'll see Sauron at his most Magnificent Bastard-est I'll Squee my pants off.

Interesting. Maybe it starts with the waning years of Númenor and then it goes into Sauron's ring-making and eventually the War of the Last Alliance? I would like to see the downfall of Ar-Pharazon and Sauron's finest hour (the moment he stands triumphant on the highest point of Númenor as the gods send storm and rage down from the heavens).

Wait... we might get Sauron in Annatar form? Prepare the Draco in Leather Pants brigade!

Given Sauron's penchant for going by many names, I wouldn't be surprised if there's some character they let us grow attached to across the course of a season, then reveal near the end that one of the names he goes by is "Sauron".

While I do love the idea in general, keep in mind that the name "Sauron" specifically means "the Abominable." So it's doubtful that he would have that name in any form when he's still pretending to be a good guy.

Maybe there's a guy who's been nothing but friendly and helpful all season, and then at the end the elves name him "Annatar" for his deeds. And then all the LOTR fans freak out, while more casual viewers are just like "oh, okay."