Lord of the Rings

There was that big lawsuit over movie rights. But that's just it, the copyright issue is still quite a few years away and there's not an official statement.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/03/movies/tolkien-estate-and-warner-bros-settle-lawsuit-over-licensing.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien_Estate

Edited by Aaymeirah on Oct 3rd 2018 at 6:47:51 AM

I think the event is so far in the future they're not actively thinking about it.

Basically everyone who is currently in a position of power in the Tolkien estate will likely be dead by then, so yeah, not really worth worrying about.

Plus, as far as I know, the only creative work to get an exemption from entering the public domain is Peter Pan, and that's only because no politician wants to be seen taking money away from a children's hospital.

Heaven forbid a politician sullying their name by depriving children of medical care!

I read my way through around half of The Fall of Gondolin (more specifically, "The Original Tale"). I echo the sentiments that the manuscript is surprisingly complete all things considered. The entire sequence in Gondolin is a fantastic Big Badass Battle Sequence in a way Tolkien very rarely does, given he tends to skip describing battles (in LOTR, only really Pelennor Fields is shown in extensive detail).

It's interesting to see think this was the earliest story Tolkien wrote, still fresh from his battlefield experiences, given the detail in which the battle is described. The dragons (here apparently made of iron and bronze) seem to pretty clearly echo tanks for me, what with how the narrative often mentions they were "built", and the way the bring down the walls of Gondolin being reminiscent of tanks bombarding a city's walls.

The 12 commanders of the 12 Houses of Gondolin are neat in that some of them manage to be surprisingly compelling in spite of how shallow they are. Rog's suicidal bravery and Salgant's cowardice in particular stand out. One of my favorite bits was how, after Salgant perishes or is enslaved by the Orcs (unclear, but either way he's doomed), the young Eärendil mourns him because apparently Salgant used to play with him when he was younger. It caught me off-guard, as the narrative beforehand only showed Salgant as a Dirty Coward pretty much devoid of good qualities that almost causes Gondolin's fall single-handedly. Interesting that Tolkien added that moment of humanity to the character post-mortem.

The Fall of Gondolin is indeed pretty great. I think it's easily the best out of the original Lost Tales stories. With some minor tweaks it actually fits pretty well with the later Silmarillion. The metal dragons are a bit eyebrow raising though. I wonder if Tolkien intended to take them out.

Edited by Kostya on Oct 13th 2018 at 7:01:06 AM

Yeah, I was surprised by how well it fit with the later Silmarillion all things considered. The only points that really stick out to me are "Melko" and the whole use of "Gnomes", otherwise it can be safely taken as wholly canon, I think.

It would be pretty amusing if the mechanical dragons stayed. Saruman thinking he's all the hot shit for inventing gunpowder in the Third Age when Morgoth invented tanks in the First. Get fucked, Curunir.

Out of the three great tales, I slightly edge Children of Húrin because of its stronger characters (Húrin, Turin, Brandir the Lame, Sador the Hopfoot, Glaurung, Mîm, e.t.c), but I'd safely put Fall of Gondolin in a N.2 spot, with Beren and Luthien taking the bronze.

Edited by Gaon on Oct 13th 2018 at 4:42:09 AM

I think the general outline of the story works although some details don't work. Stuff like the mechanical dragons and hundreds of Balrogs probably would have been dropped.

The later version also does a lot more with Ulmo and Tuor's meeting. I'm sure if it had continued there would have been more details given for things like Tuor and Idril's courtship and Maeglin's betrayal.

The hundreds of Balrogs (that seem to die strangely easily all things considered) would probably be dropped to something like a dozen or half-a-dozen, tops. Morgoth still seems to use a bunch of balrogs every now and then. Most likely the Balrogs roles would be whittled down to just Gothmog (and at least one more for Glorfindel to Mutual Kill with) to give him more of a presence.

And true. Though I feel the completed text of the Silmarillion plus the Fall of Gondolin provides a solid framework for how Maeglin fell to the darkness.

Edited by Gaon on Oct 13th 2018 at 5:19:58 AM

If there was a balrog (the one killed by Glorfindel) guarding what would have looked like a fairly small and inconspicuous escape route, then there were probably a sizeable number involved in the attack, not just two. Dozens sounds about right.

"Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin" is one of my favourite parts of Unfinished Tales, and makes the parallels/contrasts between Tuor and Turin very apparent. I wish we had an updated version of the rest of the story that gave Idril more characterization.

Among the three great tales, I like Beren and Luthien best, though I don't feel any need to buy the new book; the version in the Lays of Beleriand is better than any prose.

Edited by Galadriel on Oct 13th 2018 at 10:38:43 AM

I think dozens doesn't agree with Tolkien's later thoughts. He listed the number as 3-7. It's possible all 7 were there. Gondolin seems to be one place where he threw everything he had at the elves. Six attacking the city and one searching for any survivors doesn't seem too odd to me.

Another possibility is that Glorfindel didn't actually fight a Balrog. In a late writing Tolkien talks about how to reconcile Glorfindel of Gondolin with LOTR Glorfindel. When he discusses his duel with the Balrog he changes the word to Demon. At a later point in the text he writes Demon the first time. Perhaps he would have changed Glorfindel's foe to some evil Maia of lesser power.

Edited by Kostya on Oct 14th 2018 at 7:23:54 AM

I had forgotten Tolkien had the "seven max." rule, but yeah, that makes sense. Curiously this almost makes it a Phyrric Victory for Morgoth in a sense, given he loses two of his precious Balrogs, among them the Balrog captain himself Gothmog.

I wonder how that Balrog ended up under Moria.

I just finished rereading Fellowship. I also just watched the extended version of the film. I think most of the changes for the adaptation work; some conversations are moved, and the alteration to Merry and Pippin’s characterization in the first half I think is necessary, given the time constraints.

In particular, moving the “I wish the ring had never come to me” conversation to Moria gives it a depth and profundity I don’t think would be possible, if it came before Frodo left the Shire and suffered from his burden.

I do wish we had gotten a little bit more about the dwarves; there are some good pieces of backstory that we get in Lorien that I think could have been added seamlessly, if not in their original positions, then perhaps somewhere in Two Towers.

I do have one odd little gripe. Why didn’t Galadriel give Aragorn the elf-stone? She calls him Elessar in the extended, but there’s no gift as such. Instead of Arwen’s necklace, they could have had the elf-stone as the token of Arwen- heck, during the scene where Arwen gave him the necklace, she could have said no token would she give him now, but her token waits for him in Lorien, should he win her grandmother’s blessing, or add a line where Galadriel says the gift of the stone was Arwen’s idea or a gift from Arwen etc.

I also wish that once or twice, we’d gotten a moment where Aragorn draws himself up in all his kingliness.

Finally, I think the film improves and expands upon Boromir’s characterization. While he is often close to Merry and Pippin in the book, the little moments, such as Boromir teaching them sword work, really count and make his death more painful.

I've always had the image of during the nearly apocalyptic all-out maelstrom of cosmic violence that was the War of Wrath, the Balrogs falling one-by-one and in the general anarchy of the battle, a single Balrog (Durin's Bane) (realizing Morgoth is beaten and soon he'll be dead if he doesn't get out of dodge) fleeing and entering on some hole in the ground caused by the battle, making his way to the bowels of the earth, where he'd dwell until Durin VI accidentally awakened him.

I broadly agree with your assessment of the film. The bit with the Dwarves does piss me off to no end. One moment I miss as well is Samwise Gamgee effectively saying the Dwarves have no culture (but more out of ignorance than malice), and Gimli in response singing the Song of Dúrin (my favorite song of the whole saga) and Samwise being driven nearly to tears by its beauty, recognizing Dwarves are a mighty people indeed. It was a great interaction to both dwell more on the universe and add depth to Sam and Gimli. I can imagine John Rhys-Davies singing this, in a emotional tone of voice:

Maybe not the full song, but at least a verse. Just something to show how beautiful Dwarven culture can be.

The other things I miss are Aragorn's more menacing and slightly jerk-ish book self, which impacts onto Boromir's characterization (in the film he's the one who keeps antagonizing Aragorn while in the book its the other way around), but otherwise I'm pretty alright with Aragorn and Boromir. Boromir in specific is done quite well.

Edited by Gaon on Oct 14th 2018 at 10:15:52 AM

I didn’t notice book Aragorn being more jerkish or antagonizing Boromir. He’s cautious about not wanting the ring near Minas Tirith but that’s about it.

It starts in the Council of Elrond. Boromir brings up what he's there for (the dream he had and the fact he wants to save Gondor) and its Aragorn who insists on needling for not being the true king of Gondor by showing his sword and how he's the true heir while Boromir is not, which Boromir takes some offense to. In the film its the other way around, with Boromir badmouthing Aragorn for not being the true King and then Legolas jumps to his defense and Boromir just ends with a bitter "Gondor has no king. It needs no king.".

I believe something similar happens before they enter Moria.

I enjoyed the movies, but my biggest complaint would be that the scouring of the Shire wasn't even mentioned in the movies. Sure Return of the King is already around three hours long, but the fact that the Hobbits just returned to the same old Shire was very aggravating. For me, the parts in the book where the Hobbits rise up and kick Saruman in the ass for taking over the Shire was the best part of the whole saga.

Not just that, but it also contained the most important lesson from Tolkien's work: war is hell, and pacifism, while a more difficult path than violence, is nonetheless something we should strive for.

Note also that Tolkien does not quite go to the other extreme of showing pacifism to be a solution to everything. The way Saruman immediately betrays the peaceful solution by murdering Saruman anyway, and the other Hobbits immediately executing him for it, demonstrates that pacifism isn't always possible.

Leave it to Tolkien to teach us a lesson about peaceful resolution of conflicts and then subvert it immediately. He clearly was not above taking himself down a notch in that regard.

If they wanted to make a Lord of the Rings sequel, they shouldn't have tried to make The Hobbit into one; just give us a "Scouring of the Shire" film adaptation.

I don't think the scouring would provide enough material for an entire film. It was only a chapter, after all, not an entire book.

Maybe if they stretched it and embellished it they could just get a film of it to an hour or so. Hardly on par with the hours long trilogy movies. I would have been content with even a short scene.

On the other hand, they did make three full length movies out of one 310 page book.

That part of the book really drives home some important lessons. It shows the aftermath of wanton destruction of green things. It shows that sometimes, things need to be shaken up to get a change for the better, but still respecting the good old ways.

Edited by Aaymeirah on Oct 14th 2018 at 9:39:12 AM

The Balrogs in the early Fall of Gondolin are clearly not on the same power level as the Balrog in Moria. That Balrogs were not as common and were each individually more powerful is something that Tolkien developed when he wrote LotR, and the Silmarillion carries that over. It also largely removes the robo-dragon tanks.

For the three tales, I probably like Children of Hurin best as a book simply because it's the most finished. It has the best tragedy in it as well. Story-wise I like Beren and Luthien better, as it is the most upbeat and I like the idea of choosing between mortality and immortality. I like the grandeur and "epicness" of The Fall of Gondolin as well, and it's an even better "Atlantis" or "Garden of Eden" than Numenor is. I would be hard put to rank the three, however.

One of the points of Tom Bombadil seems to be the idea that pacifism, self mastery, and the rejection of power outside of your own personal boundaries is a nice ideal, but that it doesn't work in practice unless others are willing to step up to defend it. Gandalf theorizes at the Council of Elrond that if everyone else is defeated then Bombadil would eventually be conquered as well, regardless of his power.

I don't see a pacifist message in the Scouring of the Shire. Rather, I see Frodo's offer as one of mercy and pity. He is willing to forgive Saruman and Wormtongue I think because he's sick of killing and is well aware of his own fall to the temptation of the Ring. In fact Frodo throughout the book is willing to give others the chance to turn from evil and repent. The interesting thing is that none of the people he gives that chance to (Gollum, Saruman, Wormtongue) take it, but he keeps trying anyway.