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PhoenixAct Since: Feb, 2011
#5576: May 23rd 2024 at 3:45:27 PM

It's not just that Bilbo is 110, it's that he's so hearty and hale at 110.

Imagine if there was a guy in his eighties, but he looks no different than he did at thirty-five.

Edited by PhoenixAct on May 23rd 2024 at 3:45:40 AM

diddyknux (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#5577: May 23rd 2024 at 7:17:52 PM

I guess I Mandela Effect'd the thing about the 17 years in the movie then.

Also, if Frodo were hypothetically in The Hunt For Gollum, I don't think he'd be in much of it, just a cameo. They could digitally de-age Elijah Wood for the small amount of screentime he'd have. Or just good makeup, apparently it worked for Kurt Russel in Guardians of the Galaxy 2. [lol]

Edited by diddyknux on May 23rd 2024 at 9:18:37 AM

BigBadShadow25 With my last breath, I curse Zoidberg. from Basement at the Alamo (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Desperate
With my last breath, I curse Zoidberg.
#5578: Jun 11th 2024 at 9:59:18 AM

Entertainment Weekly has first look images and new details on the Lord of the Rings anime movie: https://ew.com/lord-rings-war-rohirrim-anime-meet-hero-villain-exclusive-8661309

You’re Gonna Carry That Weight.
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#5579: Jun 19th 2024 at 5:19:23 PM

You know someone contributing to the hobbit character page really has it out for Thorin (and the rest of the company) over Bombur.

There's one scene where Thorin rips a chunk out of Bombur after a long time in the forest when everyone was suffering but he didn't set out to 'destroy his sense of self worth' and I don't remember Bombur actually being emotionally destroyed and traumatised by it either.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jun 20th 2024 at 9:41:21 AM

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#5580: Jun 19th 2024 at 7:43:41 PM

[up]I noticed and walked back some of it on the main Hobbit page. I haven't looked at the character page yet.

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#5581: Jun 20th 2024 at 9:50:31 AM

I've made a number of edits on the Character page now.

Yes, Bombur had some trauma to go through, but I don't see any signs that it broke his spirit, and Thorin's threat to leave him behind (which obviously wasn't serious - they had just spent six days not leaving him behind, and Thorin would later be the first to insist on saving Bombur from Smaug) was at least partially justified by the fact that Bombur's refusal to stop talking about food was ruining everyone else's morale. It was this same talk of Bombur's that finally convinced the dwarves to leave the road in Mirkwood, which almost resulted in them all becoming spider chow and got them captured and imprisoned by the elf king.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#5582: Jun 20th 2024 at 11:41:40 AM

Oh thanks for that. :) Glad I wasn't alone in the thinking it was a little over the top.

I'm listening to the old Robert Inglis read audio book at the moment which is why I checked the page. Though I have just come to the bit where Bilbo does to give the arkenstone to Bard and Bombur is mentioned to have lasting effects, not from Thorin's shouting but simply wanting to recapture the dreams of the forest.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#5583: Jun 20th 2024 at 11:45:01 AM

Poor Bombur

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HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#5584: Jun 20th 2024 at 1:42:59 PM

The new trope Equalizing the Interspecies Romance had this entry:

  • The Lord of the Rings: All half-elves must eventually choose to become either elves or humans. When Arwen and her human lover Aragorn pledge themselves to each other, Arwen gives up her immortality to live a human life with him.

True so far as it goes, but seems a little vague and "just watched the movie" to nerds like us. tongue Other than changing some of "human" to "Man," I haven't rewritten it yet, but I did file it under Tolkien's Legendarium and added the following:

  • Beren and Lúthien: Both Aragorn and Arwen are descendants of the first Man/Elf romance, Beren and Lúthien (Aragorn far more distantly than Arwen), and their choice is, both in and out of universe, a deliberate echo of their ancestors'. After Beren is killed, Lúthien gives up her own life to travel to the Halls of Mandos and plead for Beren's soul. For the first and only time, Mandos is moved to pity, and both are allowed to reincarnate (as Elves who are killed sometimes do) on the condition that Lúthien give up her immortality and share Beren's ultimate fate, the true Death that is the Gift of Men. Their children and descendants are afforded the same choice (though those that choose humanity bind their own descendants to that fate as well).
  • The Fall of Gondolin: The Man Túor and the Elf princess Idril fall in love. Their ultimate fate is not known for certain, but it is believed that Túor is the only Man to be granted an exception from the Gift of Death and allowed to join Idril and the Elves in the Undying Lands.

But that, conversely, strikes me as possibly excessively wordy. Thoughts?

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#5585: Jun 20th 2024 at 1:46:51 PM

There's also that hearsay story about Prince Imrahil being descended from an elf maiden, I imagine they had a choice to make too?

HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#5586: Jun 20th 2024 at 6:56:22 PM

And Túor and Idril’s son Eärendil might deserve a mention. It’s not really “interspecies” since he and Elwing are both half-elven and are offered the choice independently—except that Elwing chooses the Elves, and Eärendil chooses the same to be with her, even though in his heart he prefers Mankind.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#5587: Jun 22nd 2024 at 8:15:09 AM

Yes, I’d suggest something more succinct.

E.g, for LOTR:

“Played with. Arwen becomes a mortal human when she chooses to remain in Middle-earth and marry Aragorn, but this is because she is half-elven (her ancestors include both Elves and Men); she has the choice of whether to be Elf or Man and chooses the latter. Also, this does not involve any physical transformation.

For Tolkien’s Legendarium / The Silm:

“Played with. All these involve changes in mortality and the fate of the spirit; there is no indication that they involve physical transformation.

- Lúthien becomes mortal in exchange for her and Beren being returned to life (whereas otherwise she could have returned to life as an elf, but Beren would remain dead).

- There is a legend that Tuor, a Man who marries the Elf-princess Idril, ultimately became an elf, but this is never confirmed.

- Elwing (granddaughter of Beren and Luthien) and Eärendil (son of Idril and Tuor) marry, and they and their children are granted the ability to choose whether to have the fate of Elves or of Men.”

Though given the lack of physical change, I wonder if Mortality Ensues might not be a more suitable trope.

Edited by Galadriel on Jun 22nd 2024 at 8:16:56 AM

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#5588: Jun 24th 2024 at 7:27:15 AM

Tolkien made it clear several times in his letters and unpublished writings that the difference between elves and men was much more one of the spirit than a physical difference. Otherwise there could be no half-elven children.

HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#5589: Jun 24th 2024 at 8:14:06 AM

I hadn't realized that the description for Equalizing the Interspecies Romance put so much emphasis on transformation. Still, Arwen and Aragorn are such a well-known example of changing for the sake of romance that to delete the entry on technical "it's just a spiritual difference" grounds wouldn't go over well, and would lead to re-additions (and possible Edit Wars). And I still think it deserves to be there in some fashion.

Obviously, Mortality Ensues applies as well, and the existing entry on that page puts it this way:

  • In J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle-earth, the members of the Half-elven family descended from Lúthien get the cosmic choice to which kind they want to belong, leading to (im)mortality and a different fate after death. Arwen from The Lord of the Rings, and before her her uncle Elros, choose humanity and mortality. Their ancestor Lúthien was Elven, but got a once-only cosmic exception to have a mortal fate to be with her human lover Beren, before and after death.

I might tweak the wording, but that seems like sufficient context.

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#5590: Jun 24th 2024 at 10:54:04 AM

Well it's not the case that there were no physical differences between elves and men, just that the physical differences were much less significant, at least during the First, Second, and Third Ages, than the spiritual differences were.

If Arwen's ears had points on them she still had the same ears after she married Aragorn. And if he didn't have points on his ears before, Eärandil's ears didn't grow points after he made the choice to be counted as an elf.

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#5591: Jun 24th 2024 at 12:31:17 PM

Aren't Hobbits in the same general ballpark as humans, too, or am I misremembering? And they also have somewhat pointed ears.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#5592: Jun 24th 2024 at 12:33:56 PM

yes and no,they look and act incredibly human,but those pointed ears certainly look elfen

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PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#5593: Jun 24th 2024 at 12:39:56 PM

Well, yes. We were discussing that differences between elves and humans are (for the most part) more spiritual than physical, in any case.

I think the phrasing I was thinking of was maybe that Hobbits are 'a race of men'? But as I said, I could well be misremembering

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#5594: Jun 24th 2024 at 1:23:09 PM

From "Concerning Hobbits" in The Lord of the Rings:

It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered. The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten. Only the Elves still preserve any records of that vanished time, and their traditions are concerned almost entirely with their own history, in which Men seldom appear and Hobbits are not mentioned at all.

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#5595: Jun 24th 2024 at 1:31:03 PM

[awesome][tup]

Must be what I was thinking of, yeah. Thanks! It's been a while since I've done a read, even though I used to do a read-through probably twice a year or so XD

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#5596: Jun 24th 2024 at 9:20:42 PM

The real outliers are the Dwarves. They aren't Elves or Men. They were never even originally supposed to exist. Heck, they weren't even really alive at first, being more or less glorified puppets created by Aulë. It was Ilúvatar who turned Pinocchio into a real boy.

It's also not clear what happens to Dwarven souls after they die. We know Elven souls wait in the Halls of Mandos until they rezz in the West while the souls of Men go to some afterlife no one else knows. But the fate of Dwarven souls? It's a mystery.

Edited by M84 on Jun 25th 2024 at 12:22:57 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#5597: Jun 25th 2024 at 1:42:28 AM

Typical that the Elves give Hobbits the "history of great men" treatment. Knowing Tolkien, that is probably intentional, too.

Speaking of Elves, I found it interesting that the movies only made their ears slightly pointy, rather than the very long ears Elves usually get in modern fantasy settings.

[up] Do Dwarves have souls to begin with? Do the books say anything about that?

Edited by Redmess on Jun 25th 2024 at 10:44:40 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#5598: Jun 25th 2024 at 2:05:06 AM

The Dwarves didn't originally have souls. Like I said, they were glorified puppets made by Aulë because he didn't have the divine power to breathe true life into creation. Only Ilúvatar can do that. However, Ilúvatar did breathe life into them after he made his point to Aulë about not overstepping his boundaries. So from that point on, Dwarves were as much actual living beings as Elves and Men. Dwarves are considered the Adopted Children of Ilúvatar for that reason.

As for the Elves' ears being less pointy in the live action movies...that's probably a practical consideration. It's less of a pain for the actors and makeup artists.

Edited by M84 on Jun 25th 2024 at 5:07:00 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#5599: Jun 25th 2024 at 3:01:31 AM

I also recall reading somewhere that Tolkien described Elvish ears—in a letter somewhere, perhaps—as "leaf-shaped"; the movie version is perhaps closer to a "classical leaf" than the modern-fantasy version.

(Barring certain plants, of course. Maybe Elvish ears looked like fern-leaves. :P)

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Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#5600: Jun 25th 2024 at 3:03:16 AM

Yeah, it's interesting how that has evolved over time. I wonder where the first elves with truly long ears showed up.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

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