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HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#5551: May 22nd 2024 at 4:53:41 AM

It really shows how much the Istari have bound themselves into their semi-mortal forms when Gandalf gets lost in Moria and can’t think properly until he’s had a good smoke. [lol]

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#5552: May 22nd 2024 at 4:55:25 AM

One wonders if Sauron ever had issues like this whenever he took on a mortal form. Though he presumably never stayed in one form long enough to develop an addiction.

"Huh. Turns out I really like beer. Neat."

Edited by M84 on May 22nd 2024 at 7:56:42 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#5553: May 22nd 2024 at 7:55:41 AM

Yes, pipe-weed in the book is supposed to be some variety of tobacco, not cannabis, and no one gets high on it. It was not native to Middle-earth, but brought to it from Númenór. In "Concerning Hobbits" at the beginning of The Lord of the Rings there's a whole section about pipe-weed. Tolkien says it was "a variety probably of Nicotiana" (the genus that the various varieties of tobacco belongs to).

There is an interesting bit in Unfinished Tales about how Saruman mocked Gandalf for using pipe-weed, then later tried it himself, liked it, and went to the Shire several times to acquire more, and this was the start of his interest in the Shire. He hid that he had taken up smoking for fear that Gandalf would mock him if he knew about it. "But Gandalf knew of these visits, and guessed their object, and he laughed, thinking this the most harmless of Saruman's secrets; but he said nothing to others, for it was never his wish that any one should be put to shame."

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#5554: May 22nd 2024 at 8:05:10 AM

Well, not for smoking, anyway.

Different times, man.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#5555: May 22nd 2024 at 8:48:48 AM

I knew Tolkien didn’t just use the word “tobacco” because it’s a New World plant that wouldn’t be found in his prehistoric Europe, and so he felt he had to invent a fictional equivalent that’s now “extinct.”

I hadn’t heard, or had forgotten, that he justified its presence by saying it was imported from Atlantis. [lol]

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#5556: May 22nd 2024 at 8:50:39 AM

Did potatoes also come from Numenor? tongue

Edited by alekos23 on May 22nd 2024 at 6:50:53 PM

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#5557: May 22nd 2024 at 9:11:48 AM

I don't think Tolkien ever said much about why he included potatoes in The Lord of the Rings, but I think it's certain that he knew very well that potatoes aren't native to Europe and that the choice to include them anyway was deliberate. Probably to emphasize the basic "rural Englishness" of Sam.

If it bothers you, you could argue that it's a translation of the Westron term for some other root vegetable, not real potatoes, or that the Númenóreans did in fact bring real potatoes to Middle-earth but that somewhere between the Fourth Age and now the potatoes died out until re-introduced to Europe post-Columbus, like Tolkien implies tobacco did.

One of the changes Tolkien made in the third edition of The Hobbit was to change "tomatoes" to "pickles" as one of the foods at the Unexpected Party, although it's an open question of whether he made the change because tomatoes are native to the Americas or because he thought it was too early in the year (April 25th) to have ripe tomatoes served to the dwarves.

Yes Tolkien thought about these sort of things. There are entire sections of The History of Middle Earth books where he works out the dates of events in The Lord of the Rings in order to make sure he got the phases of the moon correct each time he mentioned the moon in the text.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#5558: May 22nd 2024 at 10:08:30 AM

No "Oh, maths" for Tolkien, that's for sure.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#5559: May 22nd 2024 at 10:48:58 AM

The trick to worldbuilding is that there's literally no limit to which you can worldbuild enough. You just need to find a good enough stopping point for your story, otherwise you'll be worldbuilding forever.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#5560: May 22nd 2024 at 10:51:52 AM

That was Tolkien's flaw, if anything. He never stopped world-building until the day he died, and because he changed his mind so often there really isn't a singular "canonical" history of Arda and Middle-Earth.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#5561: May 22nd 2024 at 11:38:15 AM

It was a great sadness for me to listen to the audiobook of The Fall of Gondolin, which includes an early draft of the complete story, a pile of revisions and notes, and a much later-written, more elaborate telling of the tale—which stops abruptly at the moment Tuor reaches Gondolin, as Tolkien was never able to complete it.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#5562: May 22nd 2024 at 12:39:15 PM

That's also a result of it being unfinished, though. Most writers' unfinished work will look like that.

And some writers never finish. We once covered a certain German author in European literature class (I forgot the name, one of the very famous ones), and how he had hundreds upon hundreds of pages of just notes and drafts and whatnot to his unfinished doorstopper masterpiece. The teacher mentioned that it was a shame he never got to finish. I figured, if he had that huge amount of notes and stuff already, he still wouldn't have finished if he had lived a hundred years more. He simply would have had a bigger unfinished doorstopper and so many more notes.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
diddyknux (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#5563: May 23rd 2024 at 12:51:21 AM

How detailed are the Appendices in the books? It seems like a lot of the stretching of the property into tv and movies has to mine them. And if something is mentioned, but not in detail, but IS in detail somewhere else in Tolkien's posthumous works, do they have to deliberately skew away from those details in order to not run afoul of rights issues?

Edited by diddyknux on May 23rd 2024 at 2:51:38 PM

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#5564: May 23rd 2024 at 10:16:18 AM

The appendices include quite a bit of backstory, along with lots of dates, but they don't go into narrative-level detail. The Second Age is probably the least-detailed and most open for expansion era, with most of what Tolkien wrote about it being about Númenór and its kings and queens rather than events in Middle-earth, until near the end of the age.

From what I understand, nobody (currently) has the rights to make films or TV series about Tolkien's other posthumously-published writings, like The Silmarillion, the History of Middle Earth books or the more recent books like The Fall of Gondolin.

Both the Peter Jackson movies and the Amazon TV series do a lot of time compression - fitting events that took much longer in the original into smaller time spans. Often they change events in order to simplify, and sometimes they introduce events that aren't in the books at all.

theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#5565: May 23rd 2024 at 11:05:16 AM

Yeah, doesn't Frodo wait for Gandalf for like 15 years? He gets a new house and sells Bag End, even!

And Silmarillion takes place over thousands of years, through the entire First Age. Children of Hurin and Fall of Gondolin also happen during it.

Edited by theLibrarian on May 23rd 2024 at 11:08:34 AM

diddyknux (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#5566: May 23rd 2024 at 11:34:29 AM

For what it's worth, in the writer's commentary for Fellowship (Pete, Fran, and Philippa, which I guarantee I'm spelling wrong), they float the idea that there could still be that years-long time skip, that it's vague enough if book fans choose to believe it's there.

Edited by diddyknux on May 23rd 2024 at 1:35:17 PM

HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#5567: May 23rd 2024 at 12:03:34 PM

[up][up] The move is after the wait; it’s part of Gandalf’s plan for Frodo to sneak out of the Shire quietly. By very publicly selling his mansion and buying an out-of-the-way cottage on the border instead, Frodo gets his neighbors’ tongues wagging about his finances (“that old Bilbo’s treasure has finally run out!”) and not paying so much attention to the fact that he never actually takes up residence in his new place.

Edited by HeraldAlberich on May 23rd 2024 at 3:55:22 PM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#5568: May 23rd 2024 at 12:51:28 PM

I don't really like that he never warns his friends beforehand, though. He only springs that when his foot is practically already on the gangplank of the ship that will take him away forever.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#5569: May 23rd 2024 at 12:55:35 PM

[up][up][up] Well, apparently, it’s there, since it’s likely when The Hunt for Gollum will take place. I can’t buy Elijah Wood aging 17 years, but, like, five or eight would be enough time.

[up] I think we’re talking about different things. I was referring to when Frodo flees the Shire ahead of the Ringwraiths at the beginning of Fellowship, not when he leaves Middle-earth for Valinor at the end of Return of the King. By that time he’s gotten Bag-End back, and passes it down to Sam.

Edited by HeraldAlberich on May 23rd 2024 at 4:02:00 AM

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#5570: May 23rd 2024 at 1:34:16 PM

[up][up][up][up]The writer's commentary for Fellowship speculates that "maybe they went and had the side adventure with the Old Forest and Tom Bombadil and the Barrow Wights like in the book between these two scenes and we just didn't show it." The blades they got from the barrows in the book don't show up in the movie, but sure, we could go with that.

But I don't remember the commentary saying, "well maybe there still was 17 years between Bilbo's 111th birthday party and Gandalf returning to the Shire, and then another 5 months pass between when Gandalf returns and when Frodo leaves the Shire with Sam, and we just didn't show it."

It's pretty obvious that the events of the movie happen much more quickly. Gandalf seems to go to Gondor, find Isildur's record, and ride back to the Shire within about a month at the most, and Frodo and Sam leave the Shire the morning after he returns.

Edited by Bense on May 23rd 2024 at 2:03:28 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#5571: May 23rd 2024 at 1:48:17 PM

I'm pretty sure the commentary makes it explicitly clear that the timeline has been compressed considerably for reasons of pacing.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#5572: May 23rd 2024 at 3:06:08 PM

[up]Yes. It wasn't because of problems with apparent age, because the book makes it clear that—like Bilbo since taking the ring into his possession—50-year-old Frodo has not visibly aged a day since Bilbo left the Shire. But though that time skip was portrayable in the movie, it didn't add much to the story.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#5573: May 23rd 2024 at 3:11:39 PM

Yeah, it didn't add much, and it just stopped the story dead in its tracks, so they left it out.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#5574: May 23rd 2024 at 3:11:54 PM

Oh. *facepalm* Ring, butter, too much bread, right. Frodo can look as babyfaced as ever.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#5575: May 23rd 2024 at 3:34:10 PM

Isn't the main problem with the 17-year timeskip that in the movie, the Hobbits all appear around the same age when in the book, Frodo is 50 (around 35 in Hobbit years) older than Sam and Merry who are mid-30s (early 20s in Hobbit), and Pippin is a teenager at 28 (late teens in Hobbit)? Meaning that 17 years ago, during Bilbo's birthday, Pippin was a small child of 11 (an even smaller child in Hobbit).

Whereas in the movie, all the Hobbits are portrayed around the same age because we see them all at Bilbo's birthday looking the same as they do later.

Honestly, it's kinda weird that they made such a big deal out of Bilbo living to 110, when it's later revealed he lived another 17 years without the ring. I guess that tracks with Gollum, though, who lived like 70 years without the ring.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on May 23rd 2024 at 3:34:38 AM


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