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Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#301: Nov 19th 2014 at 2:20:05 PM

As I said, there are a number of reasons Saruman became the way he did. Both Elrond and The Silmarillion more or less go with the He Who Fights Monsters path:

"Saruman had turned to dark thoughts, having studied too long the works of Sauron and beginning to think of him as a rival rather than an enemy. He desired the One Ring for its power to order the world to his liking"

It's important to remember both Sauron and Saruman were Maia of Aule and thus share a similar predilection for Order. They see it as their duty as "Wise" beings beyond any others, to change the world. Sauron was said to have initially been attracted to Melkor by Melkor's apparently ability to get shit down now and fast.

And that was normal Sauron, not a Sauron cloaked in, and a slave to the weakness of, flesh. Aule also jumped the gun due to impatience way back at the dawn of Arda. Saruman already had an impatient "I want to get things done" inclination just like his master and his "brother" and that flaw was only exacerbated by being incarnate.

Combined with his envy of Gandalf, his hopelessness at defeating Sauron with anything but the Ring itself, and the fact Sauron mindfucked him through the Seeing Stone, Saruman's fate was sealed.

If you want a further justifcation, and drawing completely on Saruman being like Sauron, we can say Saruman's thought on the Vala/Eru was like Sauron's:

"Sauron could not, of course, be a "sincere" atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the "change of the world" at the Downfall of Númenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse and wrath. If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and "colonize" Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast — cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people rather than of animals."

Perhaps it is fair to say Saruman grew to believe God wouldn't intervene just like Sauron did. He might think "the Vala sent me here so they obviously have no intention of helping either."

edited 19th Nov '14 2:26:53 PM by Nikkolas

CorrTerek The Permanently Confused from The Bland Line Since: Jul, 2009
The Permanently Confused
#302: Nov 19th 2014 at 3:50:51 PM

That's fair. I just don't see Saruman as more pitiable for succumbing to doubt because he had firsthand knowledge. Denethor's despair is easier to understand as a man who had no experience of such things.

Jenaiqueserasera Every mission's a suicide mission! from U States of A Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
Every mission's a suicide mission!
#303: Jan 14th 2015 at 4:22:09 PM

I never had much sympathy for Saruman. Morgoth and Sauron always had my support and are by far my favorite characters, but Saruman's villainy plot just... didn't feel too compelling to me, not in the same way. Still I think he's by far the most interesting of the story's villains.

"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion."
Laicamir Since: Oct, 2013
#304: Feb 27th 2015 at 4:56:31 PM

Maeglin is the villain I by far have the least sympathy for. I found him utterly detestable and I can't see any way you could use his circumstance to vindicate his actions.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#305: Feb 28th 2015 at 3:46:40 PM

Dude just wanted to marry his cousin. Then some human had to go and get in the way.

Jenaiqueserasera Every mission's a suicide mission! from U States of A Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
Every mission's a suicide mission!
#306: Mar 7th 2015 at 3:18:01 AM

I almost liked Maeglin and could ignore the creepy incest jealousy, but he gets really unhinged in Gondolin afterward. I was pretty happy when he got finished off.

I DO have sympathy for Gothmog. Why couldn't he have worn a life preserver or something? He was one of my favorites! sad

"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion."
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#307: Mar 15th 2015 at 6:38:26 PM

The only Tolkien Villain who earned my unending hatred with no sympathy whatsoever is Feanor.

The fact people defend him and say he wasn't a villain just makes me loathe him all the more.

ObsidianFire Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#308: Mar 15th 2015 at 9:34:00 PM

[up]I always gleefully bring up both Feanor and Maeglin whenever the topic of Tolkien's elves being a race of Purity Sues comes up.

Laicamir Since: Oct, 2013
#309: Mar 15th 2015 at 9:43:20 PM

While I don't agree with his actions I can at least sympathise with Feanor, it would be horrible if something was stolen from you and then not only did a group of people powerful enough to get it back for you not do so but they also told you not to.

It certainly doesn't vindicate Alqualonde but I feel it certainly makes Feanor far more sympathetic than Maeglin, Feanor had a reason at least for what he did.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#310: Mar 15th 2015 at 9:54:19 PM

Well Maeglin didn't exactly have it easy you know. Eol kinda lost his mind at some point and went chasing after both Maeglin and his mother with the intent of killing or capturing them. Then Maeglin got the pleasure of his own father trying to murder him only to lose his mother instead as she died to defend him.

Skip forward several years and then he's captured by Morgoth and threatened with torture. Torture which we know can break even Hurin.

By contrast, Feanor's problems are: I live in Heaven, I'm the greatest elf ever, and my dad remarried.

How tragic.

Also, in fairness, in LOTR the Elves were indeed way too pure and good and perfect. It was The Silmarillion that rectified that problem.

edited 15th Mar '15 10:00:38 PM by Nikkolas

Laicamir Since: Oct, 2013
#311: Mar 15th 2015 at 10:02:55 PM

But if Feanor succeed he gained his Silmarils back. Eol was already dead so what did Maeglin stand to gain? I would also argue that while Hurin was broken he never willingly served Morgoth.

edited 15th Mar '15 10:13:23 PM by Laicamir

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#312: Mar 16th 2015 at 5:06:44 AM

In LotR, we see the elves at the waning of their days on Middle-Earth. They've got little enough left that they can't afford the kind of hubris that led to their doom back in the First Age. Anyway, Feanor was Blessed with Suck in a way — he was perhaps the greatest craftsman in all of Arda, past, present, or future. He crafted the light of the Two Trees into gems, a feat never replicated. Doing so, however, led to nothing but tragedy for him and his, and it is well-established in Tolkien's universe that power of that nature is inherently corrupting, turning even the best of intentions into jealousy and spite.

Could he have chosen a different path? Perhaps. But Tolkien believed in tragic heroes whose greatest strengths proved the cause of their downfall. Feanor is little different from any others in this respect, save that he rose higher and fell farther. I can despise his actions while at the same time having sympathy for what brought him to them.

Maeglin was a piece of shit, although you can hardly blame him for that given his father.

edited 16th Mar '15 5:08:43 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#313: Mar 16th 2015 at 8:44:13 AM

I think Tolkien envisioned Feanor as an epic hero of the older mould, like Agamemnon or Achilles: someone who's awesome and larger than life, but not necessarily good or admirable. The reader's meant to be impressed by his considerable virtues, but not necessarily to like him at all, or to want to be like him.

And Maeglin as written is, indeed, an utter tool. His origins are stark enough, though, that he's not 100% unsympathetic. It's also easy to suspect a more complex character lurking between Tolkien's sketched descriptions, maybe even one with some honest resentments.

edited 16th Mar '15 8:48:34 AM by Jhimmibhob

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#314: Mar 16th 2015 at 8:50:51 AM

In fairness, Eol just wanted to be left alone originally.

Although i'm not sure if his story with Maeglin's mom (name's eluding me atm) is something like rape? She didn't seem happy with him, she just sort of wandered into his territory and ended up wedded to him, and the book sort of skipped over details of whether there was any courtship. Then again, she was one of the ones who crossed the Grinding Ice, so i doubt she would take much shit from a recluse if she wasn't on board with it.

ObsidianFire Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#315: Mar 16th 2015 at 9:11:03 AM

[up]It seemed to me like she was pretty willing to get married to Eol, and it was only after her son wanted to go to Gondolin that she wanted to leave to see her family again. Give how going to Gondoloin is a one-way trip, Eol would never get to see his son and wife again... I can actually kinda sympathize with Eol up until his Disproportionate Retrebution.

With Maeglin, he doesn't get that bad until Idril rejects him in favor of Tuor. It's not until after Earendil is born that Maeglin gets captured by Morgoth and part of the reason why he gave up Gondolin to Morgoth is so that he can rule over Gondolin afterwards and have Idril as his wife. So I think there's a lot more going on with him then just how Eol killed his mom...

Jenaiqueserasera Every mission's a suicide mission! from U States of A Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
Every mission's a suicide mission!
#316: Apr 5th 2015 at 11:39:02 PM

I was always curious why Maeglin tried to kill Idril though. IIRC he did explicitly, nearly kill her during the siege, which seemed strange to me. Morgoth was obviously winning and already promised him the city and Idril. Sure, he was almost definitely lying, but why would Maeglin think that? Would he really want to kill the woman who'd been the main focus of all his creepily unrequited affection this whole time?

"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion."
Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#317: Apr 6th 2015 at 9:13:45 AM

[up]As written, it strongly implies that the Maeglin/Idril situation took a turn for If I Can't Have You…. But it's also possible that there was way more to the story than the existing Silmarillion version gives us ... details that Tolkien would have eventually have gotten around to.

Now, Tolkien did write an early, highly detailed version of the Fall of Gondolin. But most of its details belong to earlier conceptions of Middle Earth that T. abandoned, and should probably be taken as superseded non-canon. In fact, I seem to remember that Tuor was still a "Gnome" (Noldo) in that version.

Jenaiqueserasera Every mission's a suicide mission! from U States of A Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
Every mission's a suicide mission!
#318: Apr 28th 2015 at 9:38:08 PM

Tolkien, for better or for worse, did like keeping some things mysterious or unexplained.

I'm guessing it's similar to what you said though. Idril probably tried to fight back, which obviously would give Maeglin cause to pull a "If I can't have you" sorta thing.

The Fall of Gondolin really is one my favorite parts of the entire lore, partly because of how it was made. The original essay was written by Tolkien around the middle of World War I if I'm not mistaken and was more of a "fantasy perspective" on World War I itself and armor coming into the trenches. Then it underwent changes to fit more into his actual fantasy world much later.

There's probably so much he wanted to do with it. Shame he didn't get enough time.

"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion."
Jenaiqueserasera Every mission's a suicide mission! from U States of A Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
Every mission's a suicide mission!
#319: Jun 30th 2015 at 8:21:07 PM

Picking up the new Silmarillion, both parts, in a few days. Excited!

"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion."
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#320: Aug 2nd 2015 at 9:26:14 AM

So I just ran into a War Letter in Shadow of Mordor that actually made me wonder what the canonical answer is(Where did Orcs come from?).

Here's the letter btw:

On the Origin of Orcses

Where'd we come from? Us Orcs? That's what I want to know? Tortured Elves, pulled out of a vat by some sort of dark sorcery. Orthog says that the first Dark Lord Morgoth mated with some Elf Queen in the forest. It's all hogwash if you ask me.

Stories made up to keep us marchin', keep us fightin' their dirty wars. I reckon we were here before the lot of 'em and we'll still be here when them and their stinkin' wars are long gone.

edited 2nd Aug '15 9:26:37 AM by LordofLore

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#321: Aug 2nd 2015 at 1:03:04 PM

Interesting, to say the least.

On another note, is the franchise as a whole — comprised of LOTR, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, and all other works within the same verse as these three major ones — supposed to be called "(J.R.R.) Tolkien's legendarium", or is it "Middle-earth legendarium"? Which is more proper as a term, to put it in another way?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#322: Aug 2nd 2015 at 1:14:55 PM

[up]'Tolkien's legendarium' is the more correct term used to cover all of his writings, since The Silmarillion shows some cosmological and mythological background, and so encompasses more than just the Middle Earth. 'Middle Earth's legendarium' is a very popular term, though.

edited 2nd Aug '15 1:15:49 PM by Quag15

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#323: Aug 2nd 2015 at 1:46:08 PM

How about Tolkienverse or Legendariumverse/Legendariverse?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#324: Aug 3rd 2015 at 5:26:39 PM

@Lordof Lore I always considered the orcs, trolls, and dragons to be clones of Morgoth. Orcs and elves are opposites are it is hard to believe that one came from the other.

ObsidianFire Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#325: Aug 4th 2015 at 10:01:24 AM

[up]In the Silmarilion, it's specifically said in-universe that Morgoth bred orcs and trolls by capturing elves and ents and corrupted them using magic and forcibly breeding them with other evil things he made. And the elves know this which is why they hate orcs so much...

Ironically, this gave Tolkien himself problems which he mentions in some of his letters. Given that he'd already established the orcs as a Always Chaotic Evil race, he was having problems figuring out what happened to their souls... he never came up with a solution for it.

On the other hand, the Silmarilion establishes that when elves do decide to go evil, they go evil catastrophically. It's rather ironic that that leads to more lasting damage to Middle Earth then the orcs ever do.


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