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TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#276: Aug 27th 2013 at 4:39:54 AM

Sounds more like mockery to me. "Hang on, I'm processing compassion for the dwarves... ok, I'm done."

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#277: Oct 30th 2014 at 10:42:07 AM

Hey, one thing I can't help noticing; I can't find any Saruman Of Many Colours imagery. He's always portrayed as White.

He is referred to as 'Saruman the White' and is said to have originally worn white robes, but on his first entry in The Fellowship of the Ring they instead appear to be "woven from all colours [, they] shimmered and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered" and he names himself 'Saruman of Many Colours'.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
ObsidianFire Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#278: Oct 30th 2014 at 11:19:28 AM

[up] Saruman calls himself "Saruman of Many Colors" in The Two Towers when Theoden, Gandalf, and the Riders of Rohan go to Isengard to see if he'll surrender. It's the scene where Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff in the book. There Saruman is wearing a robe that has "many colors" instead of his white robe.

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#279: Oct 30th 2014 at 11:33:58 AM

White light does contain all the colors of the rainbow, though; when I hear the passage I'm thinking of a silky white robe (as opposed to matte wool or cotton) that's slightly iridescent so a strong sunbeam gives it a faint rainbow sheen.

CorrTerek The Permanently Confused from The Bland Line Since: Jul, 2009
The Permanently Confused
#280: Oct 30th 2014 at 3:13:42 PM

[up]The Lord of the Rings Online video game takes this route. His robes appear white at first glance but have a really nifty iridescent effect to them.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#281: Oct 31st 2014 at 9:22:59 AM

Nah, the multicolored robe was from when Saruman took Gandalf hostage, in the summer before Frodo left the Shire.

He also had a ring on his finger, which was never otherwise alluded to.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#282: Oct 31st 2014 at 9:37:17 AM

It was one of the Three, yes?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#283: Oct 31st 2014 at 10:01:45 AM

[up]No, Saruman never had one of the Three. Elrond had Vilya (previously possessed by Gil-Galad, iirc), Galadriel had Nenya, and Gandalf had Narya (which he was given by Cirdan). Saruman's ring is presumably something he made himself as part of his studies of Sauron's arts and the Rings of Power (and his desire for the power that knowledge could bring), but what powers, if any, it actually had are never elaborated on.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#284: Nov 9th 2014 at 6:06:10 PM

That's correct. Saruman fancied himself a rival for power with Sauron and took to ring-making among his other arts. Sauron laughed at him behind his back. At no point did Saruman manage to create rings that rivaled any of the ones that Sauron had a hand in making.

edited 9th Nov '14 6:06:46 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#285: Nov 9th 2014 at 6:32:40 PM

They're both Maiar, aren't they? Why wouldn't Saruman be able to catch up to Sauron?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#286: Nov 9th 2014 at 6:51:43 PM

I'm a human - by that logic, I should be able to become as smart as Einstein, as fast and strong as an Olympic athlete, and as charismatic as Churchill. Or for an in-universe example, Aragorn and Barliman Butterbur are both human, but that doesn't remotely mean Butterbur would be as much use as Aragorn on the Quest of Mount Doom. The point being, not all Maiar are identical in abilities. Sauron was supposed to be immensely skilled in numerous areas, including shapeshifting (before the whole Numenor business, anyway), crafting powerful artifacts, and dominating the hearts and minds of others - I don't think it's a stretch at all to say he was just better than Saruman. He also has knowledge - such as the knowledge of how to make Rings of Power - that Saruman has to piece together from what scraps he can find, presumably with a fair bit of guesswork to fill in the gaps. Finally, there's also the issue of experience - Saruman, though he'd been falling towards corruption for a while, has really only been outright evil for a few decades, probably (and most of that time was still spent pretending to be the Big Good) while Sauron's been at this whole Dark Lord business for approx. six millennia with some interruptions (longer if you count his time working under Morgoth).

TL;DR - Sauron's a boss, and Saruman is having to play catch-up from a very long distance behind, and being of the same race doesn't necessarily level the playing field.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#287: Nov 9th 2014 at 7:01:39 PM

Industrialization has... crippled the world...

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
washington213 Since: Jan, 2013
#288: Nov 9th 2014 at 7:53:13 PM

Was Mount Doom supernaturally hot, or was it the fact the ring was forged there and thus that's where the spell for indestructibility was broken?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#289: Nov 10th 2014 at 7:10:53 AM

Both. Some of the lesser Rings had been destroyed in other ways, most notably those of the Seven that were melted by dragonfire, but the One Ring was impervious even to that.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#290: Nov 10th 2014 at 8:19:34 AM

The LOTR wiki also says there is strong implication that Mount Doom may have been imbued with Sauron's dark power in the same way that Melkor infected Arda with his own (and became Morgoth in the process).

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#291: Nov 10th 2014 at 8:36:42 AM

[up] I took a look under their entry for Mount Doom, and I'm not seeing any specific reference for that, and I don't remember one. Anyone else know what specific reference they might be referring to for that implication?

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#292: Nov 10th 2014 at 9:22:09 AM

See the second paragraph of the history section of this article.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#293: Nov 10th 2014 at 9:26:51 AM

Yes, but I meant something specific from the canon supporting the idea that they're putting forward there. They can assert it, but where are they getting it from?

Although I suppose this part does sort of support the implication, if that's what you meant: It seems to have lain dormant when Sauron was away from Mordor, and sprung into life when his power grew.

With the destruction of the Ring, Mount Doom had a massive eruption, sending massive lava flows down its sides and scattering the area with volcanic debris. The fiery eruption destroyed the Nazgûl and their mounts as they tried to reach Frodo on their Fell Beasts to reclaim the Ring.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#294: Nov 10th 2014 at 11:58:02 AM

Saruman and Sauron are both Maiar, but Sauron actually has the forging of artifacts as one of his areas of expertise. Hephaestus and Ares are both gods, and Ares may well be awesome in his own fields, but he will never outforge Hephaestus no matter how hard he tries.

In trying to forge his own ring of power, Saruman was trying to beat Sauron in Sauron's own particular field of mastery - always a feat that is difficult at best to accomplish. The wise knows better than to challenge a master swordsman to a swordfight unless swordsmanship happens to be your field of mastery as well; if you're a skilled archer, then an archery contest is a better proposition.

edited 10th Nov '14 12:00:21 PM by TobiasDrake

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Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#295: Nov 11th 2014 at 12:01:03 PM

Yeah, i was actually just reading the relevant section of "Return" and the mountain is very clearly reactive to the narrative, so linked subconsciously to Sauron at least.

I think the reason Saruman couldn't catch up to Sauron though is because the powers of the Istari were limited by their form. Especially in his pre-rebirth form, Gandalf was more prone to hurt and weariness, and he was clearly able to get a power upgrade in terms of being sent back. He was sent back with just a bit more of his native power, and there could likely be more.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#296: Nov 19th 2014 at 11:10:37 AM

Getting back to Saruman, as he's by far the best Tolkien Villain in my view, want to repost something I said elsewhere about LOTR Books vs. Movies:

This all being said....Saruman was immensely better in the books, especially if you read Unfinished Tales, the Appendices, and so-on. There is so much backstory about him, about how he came to be the way he is, that it easily makes him the most dynamic and realistic villain Tolkien ever wrote. (in LOTR and The Sil, anyway) He wasn't just power-hungry, he wasn't just mindfucked by The One, he wasn't just jealous of Gandalf, he was all of these things and more. People with one all-consuming reason for their villainy kinda bore me but Saruman's fall is completely believable and awesome in my view.

For one thing, a huge emphasis is put on the Istari's "humanizing." Tolkien talks about it in one of the Letters but I can't recall which one. Point is, when they were embodied, the Istari grew capable of feeling the same weariness as mortals do, even if they were immortal. hey recall practically zilch of ther previous life, they most of what they know they have to regain in Middle-earth. For all intents and purposes, Middle-earth is their true home now because the Far West is a fading memory.

Then, if you look at Gandalf's dialogue in the books and read up on all the planning Sauron put into play and all the forces he had at his disposal, you realize another reason Saruman fell. He was truthful about this when he confronted Gandalf: "A new Power is rising. Against it the old allies and policies will not avail us at all. There is no hope left in Elves or dying Númenor. This then is one choice before you. before us. We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it."

Let's get something straight, there was no hope of defeating Sauron by any means any of the Wise could see. Sauron's army was ludicrously bigger than anyone else's and Frodo never could have tossed the Ring into Mt. Dome. Even for a Hobbit, it was impossible.

What saved Frodo there, what destroyed the Ring, what allowed him to get to Mordor in the first place, is more or less stated to be divine intervention.

But how can Saruman count on this? When he's spending thousands of years reading up on Ring-lore in hopes of combating Sauron (and he was initially doing this for good reasons), when he's looking at the cold, hard facts, when he's being smart and sensible and weighing the sides of the war, what is he supposed to do? What general goes into war counting on God's intervention for victory? Probably not any general who remained in his post for long.

Saruman took the smartest, most logical path to defeating Sauron.

Of course, in the end, he didn't just take this path because it was logical. He took it due to a perpetually mounting envy, a lust for domination, and the frailties of his incarnate form. All these reasons combine to paint an extremely intriguing picture of his downfall. It makes him more sympathetic and three-dimensional than either of the Dark Lords he tried to emulate.


Relevant to Sauron vs. Saruman in my post are pointing out Saruman being incarnated. Now, I don't take the view that the embodiment restricted their magical powers to a huge extent. A lot of people bring this up but Gandalf could go toe-to-toe with a Balrog when need be so I take the ivew the restrictions on their Maia abilities were more like rules or guidelines.

That being said, it's canon that their minds were effected by being in these new forms and for the first centuries they were in Middle-earth they probably had to spend time re-learning stuff they already knew. Saruman thus is working with a mind more akin to men (in both his original personality and because of being embodied) than Sauron who still possesses all his old wits. Wits that surpass than his master's, the greatest Dark Lord ever.

On the topic of Saruman vs. The Ring...

Consider what Galadriel tells Frodo when he inquires as to how he may use the One's power... "Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others."

Well Saruman's Voice already shows he has definitely gained quite a proficiency in that prerequisite.

From Tolkien's Letters 246: "Of any others only Gandalf might be expected to master [Sauron] since he was a creature of the same order."

Being a Maia helps in your attempt to overpower the will of Sauron. Consider also that Gandalf the Grey had no doubts he could take and wield the Ring. Saruman meanwhile was the head of the Istari and thus presumably the most powerful. In addition he was the most versed in Ring-lore in all of Middle-earth with the exception of Sauron himself. In fact, I found this foreword by Tolkien to be quite intriguing:

"“Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would ... have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth." -Foreword to LOTR 2nd Edition, if the War of the Ring was inspired by Wordl War Ii.

Now the counter-arguments... "....Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron; but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he." -Unfinished Tales, The Istari

"3000 - The shadow of Mordor lengthens. Saurman dares to use the palantir of Orthanc, but becomes ensared by Sauron, who has the Ithil Stone. He becomes a traitor to the Council." -Appendix B

In the end, Saruman did well with what he had, but he probably couldn't have overpowered the Ring or Sauron.

I think it's very thematically important that Saruman is a failure however. The Lord of the Rings is not The Silmarillion. LOTR is not about the mightiest of the mighty throwing down and saving the day because they're just that awesome. Aragorn, for all his heritage and strength of Gondor, is just a decoy and figurehead. It was a simple Hobbit who saved the day. Saruman meanwhile fits the bill too. He wanted to become a Dark Lord on par with Morgoth or Sauron but he couldn't. The story of LOTR is not about strength overcoming strength but character overcoming strength, and Saruman sadly was always a bit weak of character.

A weak character, a weak constitution, is not a sin but poor Corumo was in over his head and the environment slowly worsened his position until he did fall to evil.

edited 19th Nov '14 11:16:50 AM by Nikkolas

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#297: Nov 19th 2014 at 11:39:44 AM

That was an interesting read, Nikkolas. ^_^

"“Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would ... have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth." -Foreword to LOTR 2nd Edition, if the War of the Ring was inspired by Wordl War Ii.
I'm not convinced that this indicates that Saruman would have been likely to have actually achieved this: as you point out, this example was given as how the story might differ if it were an allegory for World War II, and thus presumably may include characters acting, demonstrating abilities and achieving results simply to match the histories of their analogues, rather than because those are in keeping with their characters.

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CorrTerek The Permanently Confused from The Bland Line Since: Jul, 2009
The Permanently Confused
#298: Nov 19th 2014 at 12:02:06 PM

But how can Saruman count on this? When he's spending thousands of years reading up on Ring-lore in hopes of combating Sauron (and he was initially doing this for good reasons), when he's looking at the cold, hard facts, when he's being smart and sensible and weighing the sides of the war, what is he supposed to do? What general goes into war counting on God's intervention for victory? Probably not any general who remained in his post for long.

I think that a general who was specifically sent by a deity or number of deities with whom he was quite familiar would be reasonable in expecting that said deities might take a hand in saving the world.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#299: Nov 19th 2014 at 12:08:03 PM

How? When? Gandalf didn't even know. He was scared and feared Frodo might be lost or dead several times, even after coming back as the White. Even having been reincarnated by Eru Himself, he was still afraid Frodo would be killed by Shelob.

Saruman was never as wise or Gandalf and if Gandalf could have doubts, Saruman might have had nightmares.

It didn't help that, like Denethor, he looked into the Seeing-Stone. Ironic that both he and Denethor more or less gave way to despair at the power of Mordor.

[up][up] That's true. I just find that WWII info an interesting detail.

And thak you for the compliment. :) I love me some Saruman.

edited 19th Nov '14 12:09:33 PM by Nikkolas

CorrTerek The Permanently Confused from The Bland Line Since: Jul, 2009
The Permanently Confused
#300: Nov 19th 2014 at 2:05:32 PM

I'm just saying that Saruman succumbing to doubt (and being "smart" and "practical") isn't exactly a mitigating factor when, y'know, he actually lived with deities before being personally commissioned by said deities to go forth and fight.

All you have to do is compare him to Gandalf, really. Even before becoming The White, Gandalf never lost faith in the guiding hand of a higher power, as evidenced by his conversations with Frodo.

edited 19th Nov '14 2:08:16 PM by CorrTerek


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