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doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#24676: Sep 17th 2013 at 7:21:44 PM

[up][up]Zero Suit Samus? That's an odd choice, I must say. Then again, I'm a guy who thinks that Sheik might not return.

edited 17th Sep '13 7:21:53 PM by doctrainAUM

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#24677: Sep 17th 2013 at 7:24:16 PM

We saw the Zero Laser. Pretty obvious.

Removing Zelda's better half would pretty much ruin the character entirely anyway. They were designed entirely as a team, not as purely separate characters. So I see no reason Sakurai would want to ever drop Sheik.

So yeah, I can't see how they aren't coming back whatsoever.

Shadow?
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#24678: Sep 17th 2013 at 7:25:14 PM

For certain values of "Better".

I have a message from another time...
doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#24679: Sep 17th 2013 at 7:26:47 PM

[up][up]Removing Zelda's better half would pretty much ruin the character entirely anyway. They were designed entirely as a team, not as purely separate characters.

They could redesign her. I admit, that might not be practical. But I take the phrase "I have no doubt" seriously. Maybe much too literally.

[up]Right now, at least in Melee, I actually don't like Sheik. Her lack of good KO moves that I can find makes her hard for me to use. I should read up on some good Sheik strategies.

edited 17th Sep '13 7:28:25 PM by doctrainAUM

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#24680: Sep 17th 2013 at 7:27:53 PM

Yes, better gameplay and balance. Sheik isn't trash like Zelda is most of the time. They should obviously be about equal, but have different properties as planned. Sheik racks up damage fast and easy, Zelda does the KO. It does more or less work that way in practice, since Sheik isn't terribly good at KO'ing, but Zelda is outright so terrible in Brawl that it's hard to even work with Sakurai's concept.

So yeah, balance them more out and you've got a perfect double character.

[up] Not without ruining her full concept. As a team. Zelda is nothing without Sheik. Sheik is nothing without Zelda. That's how it was created, and I can't view it legitimately under any other way for the purposes of SSB. They're perfect together.

And yes, I can't see any legitimate reason to drop Sheik.

edited 17th Sep '13 7:29:14 PM by Irene

Shadow?
doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#24681: Sep 17th 2013 at 7:30:37 PM

[up]In the current Melee tier list, Sheik is 3/26 while Zelda is 19/26. So, in a sense, the two characters are more balanced in Brawl.

Also, Pokemon Trainer takes up one tier slot because he has to be used as a whole team. Zelda and Sheik occupy separate slots because they can easily be used without the other. In tournaments, they very often are.

edited 17th Sep '13 7:32:23 PM by doctrainAUM

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#24682: Sep 17th 2013 at 7:33:03 PM

Um, no, they really are far less balanced in Brawl.

Sheik is severely underpowered, and Zelda is near the bottom of the barrel. Zelda can still do stuff in Melee after Sheik racks up damage. Sheik was a bit overpowered in Melee, obviously, but at least the combo between those two isn't trash in Melee compared to Brawl.

Melee's combo was definitely better. For just needs to fine tune it a bit more. Zelda needs a higher defense or better approaches, or possibly both.

Yes, I know they can be used separately. That has nothing to do with the fact they were planned to be used as a team instead. It doesn't matter what the players can do, when the concept is for them to be a team. That concept is what made them what they are. It's why Zelda is weaker than Sheik in the first place. She was made so she wouldn't be used more often than Sheik, just as a quick KO-maker. Brawl just failed to balance them out a bit better. Sheik's placement on the Brawl Tier list isn't that bad, but Zelda's placement(which is pretty accurate considering how terrible she is) isn't a good thing. Zelda needs a serious buff in For. Sheik doesn't need much at all.

edited 17th Sep '13 7:35:53 PM by Irene

Shadow?
doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#24683: Sep 17th 2013 at 7:36:03 PM

[up]I mean that the difference between the two is 16 out of 26 for Melee, but only 12 out of 38 for Brawl. So, from a certain point of view, they are more balanced with each other.

I was responding to how you said they are perfect together, as if their Melee incarnations did not need any fine-tuning.

edited 17th Sep '13 7:37:04 PM by doctrainAUM

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#24684: Sep 17th 2013 at 7:38:19 PM

That difference doesn't mean much if Zelda is bottom tier in Brawl. Which means switching to her isn't worthwhile compared to Melee's version.

I see it differently. I get your point, but it doesn't say much.

Zelda sucks in Brawl, but is decent in Melee. Sheik is extremely good in Melee, but decent in Brawl. Brawl Sheik and Melee Zelda would be where I want them. Both good characters, but just balanced enough. That way they can hold their own with or without switching between 'em. Good balance that way, really.

...Then you kind of misunderstood my point. I'm saying they're perfect together in concept specifically. Execution is another story.

edited 17th Sep '13 7:39:18 PM by Irene

Shadow?
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#24685: Sep 17th 2013 at 7:42:41 PM

@doctraine Shiek's main KO in Melee is her up smash. Seriously, that thing has some ridiculous knockback to it.

edited 17th Sep '13 7:44:00 PM by Nap1100

doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#24686: Sep 17th 2013 at 7:48:09 PM

@Nap: Good, thanks. I've noticed that in Melee I've been drawn to quite fast characters - like the Mario Bros. and Doc, Fire Emblem Lords, Ganondorf at times - rather than super-speedy fighters like the Captain or the Space Furries. I find the latter difficult to control, especially when trying to pick up items.

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#24687: Sep 17th 2013 at 7:59:03 PM

I don't much play with Items, so I find Falcon and the Space Furries easier to play as in Melee.

My original main was Sheik, although I never could really KO with her, just last for 2nd place in general.(which isn't bad)

My main is Ganondorf in Melee, however.

Shadow?
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#24688: Sep 17th 2013 at 8:27:05 PM

I actually liked Zelda much better in Brawl, and never saw any reason for using Sheik in Brawl. I would have mained her if she jumped better.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#24689: Sep 17th 2013 at 8:33:40 PM

[up]("This")...! No other words necessary.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
DrFurball Since: Jan, 2001
#24690: Sep 17th 2013 at 11:53:38 PM

When I do play as them, I tend to stick with Zelda...if only because I find her prettier in that form than I do as Sheik. Twilight Princess Zelda is a beautiful lady.

However, I suck as Zelda, so I don't play as her very often.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Customer Since: Sep, 2009
#24693: Sep 18th 2013 at 3:38:39 AM

I don't get it. What teasing? I just see a corridor that probably connects to that Other M stage.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#24694: Sep 18th 2013 at 4:02:22 AM

I think because it has zip to do with... anything important or the characters?

What's the Caption?

Shadow?
NesClassic Meh-meh!? from Flyover Country Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: In another castle
Meh-meh!?
#24695: Sep 18th 2013 at 4:21:28 AM

The caption is how about it's not normally visible, and how the hole is bigger than it appears in normal Pyrosphere screenshots. It's kind of like that close-up of Olimar's suit- purely to show attention to detail.

Also, it reminds me of that tunnel from Zero Mission where you run over the Zebesian with an escape pod. That moment always makes me laugh.

🏳️‍⚧️she/her | Vio Rhyse Alberia
Null ... from ... Since: Apr, 2009
...
#24696: Sep 18th 2013 at 4:21:47 AM

I'm not sure whether the focus on the Ridley-hole means he's more likely to be a stage hazard or not...

...
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#24697: Sep 18th 2013 at 4:28:53 AM

Perhaps we shouldn't talk about Ridley holes in the first place. tongue

Shadow?
PeiraIssaNoid Zeddicrux from Surf Ninja Moon X Since: Sep, 2013
Zeddicrux
#24698: Sep 18th 2013 at 4:48:52 AM

let me show you my ridley hole

"we have to get vaccines against hunger"
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#24700: Sep 18th 2013 at 9:35:27 AM

That isn't the Ridley hole, I think. It looks too neat, Ridley busted through walls to escape, not into a hallway.

Apparently that screenshot isn't possible in-game. It's a photo from the end of the hall opposite the actual arena, way out of the camera's zoom-out range.

edited 18th Sep '13 9:35:48 AM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

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