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powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#82126: Oct 31st 2015 at 8:25:53 AM

I just never used FLUDD

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#82127: Oct 31st 2015 at 8:47:22 AM

Mario Tornado is a great attack, but it doesn't make sense as a D-air, because its hurtbox is at his sides and top, while a D-air is meant to attack from above.

So, BAD move. FLUDD would have worked fine as a final smash if they wanted to put it in, but it was a redundant move through and through.

Mario Tornado as a Down B, drill kick as a D-air, FLUDD as a final smash functionally identical to the Mario Finale. Bam, done.

Alfric Sailing the Skies! from Crescent Isle Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Sailing the Skies!
#82128: Oct 31st 2015 at 9:02:37 AM

I'm fine with it the way it is. Some variety in how certain moves deal damage is fine, especially since Mario Tornado still has a decent downwards hurtbox and can thus be used from above, if less effectively than others, and if I remember right it's a good landing move, as another bonus. Plus, FLUDD provides a lot of interesting outplay potential alongside the cape when dealing with certain recoveries (a reality I am quite familiar with experiencing), adding an interesting tool to Mario's kit now that it isn't a really mediocre move.

I'm not sure about Luigi getting the Poltergust given that that's already his final smash and I prefer the focus on crazy movement options for Luigi using his floaty as hell tornado. I don't particularly care about that detail enough to make me super against it, but I personally would prefer he stay the way he is in terms of moveset.

edited 31st Oct '15 9:02:57 AM by Alfric

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13239183440B34964700 Alfric's Fire Emblem Liveblog Encyclopedia!
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#82129: Oct 31st 2015 at 9:08:11 AM

[up][up]said it. Full Moon misunderstood completely.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
IceAnt573 Forever not amused. Since: May, 2015
Forever not amused.
#82130: Oct 31st 2015 at 9:22:50 AM

I don't see why just because a move doesn't function how it's "suppose to" makes it a bad move.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#82131: Oct 31st 2015 at 9:30:47 AM

The whole ordeal was a bad move, not the Mario Tornado.

HeavyDDR Who's Vergo-san. from Central Texas Since: Jul, 2009
Who's Vergo-san.
#82132: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:12:11 AM

I think while the FLUDD is an interesting and under-represented part of the Mario series, it's not defining enough to Mario to be a Final Smash. I mean, when you think Mario, you don't think water. You think fire. It'd make for a really weird looking Final Smashing if he sprayed water everywhere.

I think FLUDD is a good move, and down-air as Mario Tornado works fine enough. My personal opinion is that Mario & FLUDD should be their own combination character that replaces Dr. Mario, but it's fine enough as it is.

I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#82133: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:19:19 AM

I do think Mario has enough stuff to his name not to make up something on the spot for his finisher.

And the "I don't think water" argument... Yeah, doesn't that invalidate FLUDD? Or even fucking Super Mario Sunshine? And people kinda think "jumps" when thinking about Mario over "fire", I'd assume.

And a high pressure water whirlpool being sprayed sweeping opponents out of the stage would make about as much sense as the same thing with fire, with the added value of making some sense (and also looking neat next to Luigi's similar Final Smash in 4; Final Smash that would have worked better in Brawl than random color inversions).

Daydre That's just how it is on this bitch of an earth from in my house Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
That's just how it is on this bitch of an earth
#82134: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:23:37 AM

Mario only had the FLUDD for one main series game, though, didn't he?

Compare that to how many games the Fire Flower appears in..

we will survive.
HeavyDDR Who's Vergo-san. from Central Texas Since: Jul, 2009
Who's Vergo-san.
#82135: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:27:26 AM

That doesn't invalidate FLUDD because it's still a part of Mario history. It's not like he never had the FLUDD in his arsenal, but at the same time, it's not what he's known for. It works fine as a special move. Mario Finale feels very "Mario," which is to say it's a pretty basic Final Smash with no weird gimmicks, and involves an element he's known for across many of his games. Every one of his spinoffs associates him with fire, and I think fire is easier to play with in terms of making an attack than jumping.

I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#82136: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:31:51 AM

Mario's entire body is a hitbox in his D-Air, not just the sides and top. It works perfectly for attacking from above.

FLUUD is a perfectly okay move and Mario is not losing anything by having it substitute his Mario Tornado and is fact getting a way to better edgeguard people. I don't see what's the problem here.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#82137: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:33:47 AM

@Baffle Blend: you yourself are misunderstanding completely due to your dislike of FLUDD. I'm suggesting for Luigi Poltergust being an opposite to FLUDD, and similar to Gravitational Pull.

As for Ganondorf, my suggestions would make his Down+B and Up+B into a harder hitting variant, and he still has his smashes and other moves. And if he must have a Warlock Punch, it could easily be his forward smash, instead of an elbow. A punch would be a more effective use of range at that position, and another difference from Captain Falcon.

edited 31st Oct '15 10:42:30 AM by wanderlustwarrior

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#82138: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:34:18 AM

I beg to disagree with that last statement, but I also feel this can end up dragging on for quite too long.

Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#82139: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:43:12 AM

You want to make Luigi more similar to Mario, in the worst way possible?! The FLUUD is one of the most hated attacks in the series.

Ignoring this weird, largely irrelevant debate on whether a move is "popular" enough to be in the game or not, you may have missed the part where the move was stated to function as the exact opposite of FLUDD, as mentioned above.

There's all sorts of clever ways to design a move focused on drawing your opponents towards/past you, and even in the inevitable worst-case scenario where it ends up as a 1:1 DDD Inhale clone, frankly that would be far more healthy for the game overall than his current "unconditional throw-into-KO at anywhere near unhealthy percents" Down-B.

And making Dr. Mario absurdly different would defeat the entire point of his inclusion in both of his appearances; he's a quick implementation. He's already Mis-blamed for eating up development time from other characters.

As far as anybody's concerned, he has in fact ate up development time that could have gone into Alph.

What on earth is this argument, anyway? Nobody has any realistic expectations that these will all be applied to Smash 4 after its storied history; this is all on the assumption that the characters mentioned return in a future game, and Dr. Mario certainly better have something worth considering after being nothing more than slapdash roster filler for 2 games in a row.

And we've already been over Ganondorf. Some* people love him the way he is because he's perhaps among* the most satisfying, hardest-hitting characters* in the entire roster (despite his competitive unviability).

We apparently have not been over Ganondorf since clearly we're still under this bizarre illusion that the fanbase as a whole is content with him being consistently pigeonholed into the moveset of a racer from a dead series.

[down]Oh. Good to hear, though it doesn't really shake my stance on it.

edited 31st Oct '15 10:55:31 AM by Demonfly

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#82140: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:48:41 AM

Luigi can't kill with D-Throw -> Cyclone anymore.

Also Dr.Mario hasn't been in two games in a row since he kinda skipped Brawl but semantics.

edited 31st Oct '15 10:49:15 AM by FullMoon

MEKristian Since: Nov, 2009
#82141: Oct 31st 2015 at 11:11:30 AM

The Smash fandom, where in no topic can be broached without arguing. So much arguing.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#82142: Oct 31st 2015 at 11:14:24 AM

It's bothersome. I know I'm reposting my wishes a couple of times for feedback, but I like that some of us can make suggestions without arguing or cutting down.

[up][up][up]Thank you for your reading comprehension.

edited 31st Oct '15 11:15:07 AM by wanderlustwarrior

NoLimit Since: Oct, 2009
#82143: Oct 31st 2015 at 11:51:09 AM

[up]While I definitely respect your opinions on the changes and definitely agree some of them would be really cool, I personally don't think any of those characters need extensive changes to make them feel more like how they are in their games.

If we really insisted on the characters being exactly like how they were in their games, Ness and Lucas's specials would ALL be completely different because they never actually learned most of those moves in their games. But no one raises a voice for them because they like their movesets and the Mother series isn't nearly as popular as the Zelda series.

Ganondorf may not have a moveset that reflects his abilities in his actual games (which I fully admit is disappointing and would like it to be changed or, EVER BETTER, moved to another character while giving him a new one), but neither does those two, Zero Suit Samus, Fox/Falco/Wolf, Captain Falcon, Pac-Man, or Bowser Jr.

And please don't respond with, "But their moves reflect THIS aspect of..." or "they don't count because their original games was (insert game genre here)". I know where a bunch of their moves originate from. I just mean a ton of their moves and how they work were still made up for Smash.

edited 31st Oct '15 12:07:16 PM by NoLimit

NesClassic Meh-meh!? from Flyover Country Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: In another castle
Meh-meh!?
#82144: Oct 31st 2015 at 11:54:46 AM

Guys, I like Dr. Mario and want him to stick around though. I, for one, enjoy his nuanced differences and would prefer his moveset changes not a bit.

...just felt like throwing that one out there.tongue

🏳️‍⚧️she/her | Vio Rhyse Alberia
NoLimit Since: Oct, 2009
#82145: Oct 31st 2015 at 11:59:08 AM

[up] Same here. I actually like Sakurai's justification for Dr. Mario staying the same: He's (barring being slower) basically Melee Mario. [lol]

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#82146: Oct 31st 2015 at 12:03:35 PM

[up][up][up]You're quite right. I mainly went with those particular characters because those are the ones I like or want to see more from Ness and Lucas are unfortunately somewhat afterthoughts for me, and at least for Ness I feel he's pretty cemented and fine as is, and I'd really rather not come up with entirely new movesets for anyone.

Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#82147: Oct 31st 2015 at 12:10:48 PM

n that case, perhaps Samus'uncharged shot ought to be griven a similar mechanic to Mega Man's lemons? Tap repeatedly while not moving for rapid fire, and can walk forward at the same time once this is started. Of course, this may be trickier to implement, since the lemons are MM's neutral A and F-tilt...
Regardless, Samus getting projectile basic attacks like Mega Man and Gunner would be a very big boon to here, though her not having the animations of a heavy-hitter with the actual effects of a much weaker character in general wouldn't hurt.

I sure said that!
NoLimit Since: Oct, 2009
#82148: Oct 31st 2015 at 12:12:20 PM

There are only two big changes I want made for Samus (aside from obvious frame data changes):

1) Samus can charge her shot while in the air.

2) Samus's homing missile behaves like the Mii Gunner's homing missile.

I actually checked this: Gunner's missile homes WAY better than Samus's, even doing 180 degree turns, and that SUPER CONFUSES ME.

edited 31st Oct '15 12:12:52 PM by NoLimit

Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#82149: Oct 31st 2015 at 12:24:50 PM

Can't be a strong, independent woman if you're not wearing a skintight outfit, brah.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#82150: Oct 31st 2015 at 12:26:55 PM

[up][up]Okay yeah, that should definitely be a thing.


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