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BlitzTrain Since: Apr, 2014
#82101: Oct 30th 2015 at 1:26:23 PM

Eh, just my uneducated opinion but trying to charge and do anything else at the same time sounds annoyingly tricky to do, and I'd rather just keep Samus's charge shot mechanics as they are.

edited 30th Oct '15 1:27:00 PM by BlitzTrain

Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#82102: Oct 30th 2015 at 1:51:36 PM

One thing I know for sure is that her charge shot has to be changed, and in fact should never have been the way it is. It's just insulting how terrible it is in its uncharged form, and for no legitimate reason whatsoever! And the full charge requires a buff, too, of course, mostly for priority.

BlitzTrain Since: Apr, 2014
#82103: Oct 30th 2015 at 2:21:28 PM

One thing I know for sure is that her charge shot has to be changed, and in fact should never have been the way it is.

Do you mean the whole standing still, charge-and-save mechanic? Or just that it needs tweaks to be more viable? Because I was mostly talking about the former.

FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#82104: Oct 30th 2015 at 2:50:29 PM

Charge Shot is perfectly fine the way it is. It's powerful, it's moderately fast and you can store the charge and combo into it.

What Samus needs is a buff to her missiles. Homing Missile is probably the worst projectile in the whole game and Super Missiles can't kill Mewtwo at 200%, plus the move has too much start-up/endlag. If Samus could get combos with the Homing Missile (it's a slow projectile that tracks you down and has very little knockback, it's perfect for that) she would become much better.

Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#82105: Oct 30th 2015 at 3:03:33 PM

I nothing else, there's no real reason for it to be unable to charge midair.

Speaking of which, why on earth does Din's Fire send Zelda into helpless falling mode?

... Actually, I kinda wonder how much helpless falling mode needs to even be around anymore. I mean, R.O.B. and Sonic and Mr. Game & Watch and all them don't seem particularly broken for lacking it.

I sure said that!
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#82106: Oct 30th 2015 at 3:23:27 PM

Those characters have very linear (or slow in ROB's case) recoveries. If you could give someone like Pikachu a recovery without a helpless state then he basically becomes able to spam Quick Attack everywhere without any sort of risk attached to it.

And well, for some characters a bad recovery is basically what keeps them from being too overwhelming (Captain Falcon being the best example)

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#82107: Oct 30th 2015 at 3:32:03 PM

Eh, I still think Ike and Ganon could do without their side B's putting them into freefall.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#82108: Oct 30th 2015 at 3:48:05 PM

Quick Draw already autocancels when landing onstage. Generally swordsman characters tend to have weak recoveries, though how weak tends to vary. Jump Shulk is probably the best at it, followed by the Links.

Honestly I would just take the freefall out of moves like Din's Fire and Giant Punch since there's really no point to it.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#82109: Oct 30th 2015 at 3:53:52 PM

Someone i.e. me. Will repost my ideas for the rest at some point once I get home tonight.

Geist-Fox loafing about from north Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
loafing about
#82110: Oct 30th 2015 at 10:44:09 PM

What if Samus could charge her shot when airborne?

Lucario, Mewtwo and (the) Robin(s) can all do it, why not her?

IceAnt573 Forever not amused. Since: May, 2015
Forever not amused.
#82111: Oct 30th 2015 at 11:58:19 PM

I really wished Thoron killed at 130% and not 150%. It's kinda disappointing to see Thoron not kill and then Arcthunder kills them like 10% later.

WaterMasterGali92 Hello again! from Remnant Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Hello again!
#82112: Oct 31st 2015 at 12:12:24 AM

[up] I KNOW, RIGHT!?

You can't get it wrong if it's the truth!
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#82113: Oct 31st 2015 at 12:22:59 AM

Reposting my suggested buffs for lower ranked characters and tweaks for semi-clones. Additional considerations were made for Samus given what I have heard here and in other threads from people more familiar with her.

Mewtwo: Highlight its telekinetic nature and Pokemon ability in a more beneficial way.

  • Add "Pressure" mechanic, doubling the Stale Moves penalty on all other fighters while he's out. This makes it slightly harder to rack up damage on him with repetitive combos.
  • Add a wall cling.
  • Add a sour spot hitbox to Mewtwo's body or tail in disjointed hitbox attacks.
  • Add an invisible tether recovery Zair. Grounded grab would remain the same speed, but with a larger reach.
  • Increase knockback on back throw, F+Tilt and F+Smash.
  • Increase dash speed.
  • Add horizontal hover after double jump, similar to Peach.

Zelda: more powerful defensively and with keep away.

  • Down+B Phantom Slash:
    • can't be broken or reflected, and always lasts for the full duration
    • can be used in midair and falls at her same speed, serving as a frontal shield in midair, then slashing once it hits the ground
    • Zelda can't use another action while it's out, and if used in midair, it puts her in the helpless state
  • Side+B Din's Fire:
    • Return to its Brawl incarnation
    • It no longer makes her helpless
  • Dair: Each step functions as an effective spike.
  • Increase knockback on smash attacks and throws.

Ganondorf: completing Divergent Character Evolution implementing magic and swordsmanship.

  • Add his Hyrule Warriors sword to his standard model, keeping most of his A moves the same, but changing the hitbox of some.
  • Neutral+B Change to "Dead Man's Volley": keeping his arm straight out, he charges a magical explosion. When initiated, there is a pop of dark energy, which functions as a reflector and pushes away opponents. Shortly after that, there is a shot of dark energy, resembling a charged Aura Sphere. Thus, if the reflector actually reflects, he returns the initial attack, following it with a projectile of his own. The shot part of the attack can still be reversed like the Falcon Punch, and both projectiles can be reflected, absorbed, etc.
    • Warlock's Punch becomes his new F+Smash.
  • Up+B Dark Dive: gains a vacuum property, pulling him and the highest available target together.
  • Down+B Wizard's Foot: add a vacuum property, dragging people into the sweetspot at the foot.

Palutena: turning her variability into a feature of her gameplay instead of working against her.

  • Any two of her customizeable moves for a position can be used within a battle. The Primary and Secondary can be shared by one of the following:
    • The secondary regenerates once used, similar to Robin's Levin Sword breaking and giving way to the Bronze Sword. I'm strongly leaning towards this way.
    • The secondary can be triggered by holding B.
    • The secondary move can be triggered by pressing B + Shield.
  • Primaries & Secondaries would be ordered and split as follows:
    • Neutral B: default Autoreticle & Explosive Flame, custom 1 Autoreticle & Heavenly Light, custom 2 Explosive Flame & Heavenly Light.
    • Side B: default Reflect Barrier & Superspeed, custom 1 Reflect Barrier & Angelic Missile, custom 2 Angelic Missile & Superspeed .
    • Up B: default Warp & Rocket Jump, custom 1 Warp & Jump Glide, custom 2 Jump Glide & Rocket Jump.
    • Down B: default Counter & Lightweight, custom 1 Counter & Celestial Firework, custom 2 Celestial Firework & Lightweight.

Samus: greatly buffed keep-away/spacing game

  • Grapple: after firing, can be briefly angled up to 90 degrees (vertical), like Pit's arrows.
  • B Charge Shot:
    • Automatically charges over time, like ROB's laser
    • Holding B draws it out, then you can tilt the control stick to choose the direction to shoot in. Releasing B fires it.
  • Side+B Missiles:
    • Increase all missile speed.
    • Slightly increase super missile power.
    • Homing Missile actually homes in better, capable of making sharp turns similar to Mii Gunner's.
  • Down+B Bombs:
    • Greatly increase damage and knockback, becoming a viable spike when used in the air, or potential kill move when grounded.
    • When used in air, automatically time and position to allow for a bomb jump that doesn't damage her, but grants horizontal recovery options.
    • Up to three bombs can be used before landing on the ground.
  • Increase falling speed unless bomb jumping.
  • Enable crawling, which turns her into her Morph Ball form, with a small hurtbox, for slow but potentially safe approaches.

Luigi: emphasize spin-off abilities.

  • Change Dair and Down+B:
    • Luigi Cyclone should be a Dair similar to Mario's
    • Poltergust should be his Down+B
      • Functioning similarly to Rosalina's Gravitational Pull
      • Serves as an opposite to Mario's Fludd.
  • Side+B Green Missile: add additional electric effects to the not fully charged variation, keeping in tune with the Mario And Luigi series abilities.

Doctor Mario: Emphasize the "Doctor", not the "Mario"

  • Change Side+B, where he gives out a virus that poisons over time.
  • Change Up+B to a downwards pill shot, similar to Robin's Elwind.

Jigglypuff: Change moves to fit the inspiration more

  • Side+B Rollout: No stale moves negation (in the original series, it gets more powerful the more it's used)
  • Down+B Rest: add a heal 10% effect.

Roy: Change moves to fit the inspiration more

  • Neutral+B Flare Blade: add a large fireball projectile that gets smaller the more the attack is charged, to the point of removing the projectile when mostly charged.
  • Side+B Double-Edge Dance: Change to a more original Double-Edge Stance
    • Remove the third stage entirely
    • Change the knockback on the Up variation's last stage so that at low percents it can combo into Blazer.
    • Increase ending lag at the final stage except for if the special move of that direction is input, thus stage 3 of each direction combos into the special move of that direction (or neutral).

Marth/Lucina: Buff moves to fit the names more, merge characters as alts.

  • Neutral+B Shield Breaker:
    • Can break a shield without being fully charged.
    • Can be held after a full charge, to travel farther horizontally (similar to Ike's Side+B), breaking shields along the whole way.
  • Side+B Dancing Blade: If the opposite side is input at any stage after the first, Marth/Lucina will turn around and continue that way.
  • Change throws to utilize Marth/Lucina's sword.

edited 26th Jan '16 11:25:23 PM by wanderlustwarrior

IceAnt573 Forever not amused. Since: May, 2015
Forever not amused.
#82114: Oct 31st 2015 at 12:34:18 AM

I really like the Luigi Cyclone. Luigi moves so wacky fast (faster than Mario's down air tornado and I think Dr. Mario's Tornado too) and has some really satisfying sounds when the hits do connect.

Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#82115: Oct 31st 2015 at 12:35:10 AM

I think this might've come from Project M (maybe not, though), but perhaps Samus could go into ball mode for her crouch, and be able to roll with it (maybe even faster than her walking speed)?

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#82116: Oct 31st 2015 at 12:36:35 AM

I actually just added that a little bit ago to my post. I didn't know Project M had used it as well. I would implement it as a slow "crawl", as linked.

[up][up]I don't mean to lose the Luigi Cyclone, just make it a Dair.

edited 31st Oct '15 12:37:40 AM by wanderlustwarrior

Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#82117: Oct 31st 2015 at 1:24:24 AM

@Charge Shot: My main issue with it is the completely uncharged version. In her home games, Samus is just shooting fast projectiles left and right, but in Smash Bros, her uncharged shot has an extremely slow firing rate, moves slowly, travels like one foot in front of her before disappearing, does basically no damage and has recoil. I mean, maybe I'm still stuck in Brawl times when it comes to Samus, but still.

TheHeroHartmut Too hot to hoot from Probably not right behind you (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Singularity
Too hot to hoot
#82118: Oct 31st 2015 at 3:42:11 AM

In that case, perhaps Samus'uncharged shot ought to be griven a similar mechanic to Mega Man's lemons? Tap repeatedly while not moving for rapid fire, and can walk forward at the same time once this is started. Of course, this may be trickier to implement, since the lemons are MM's neutral A and F-tilt...

Switch FC code: SW-4420-1809-1805
Geist-Fox loafing about from north Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
loafing about
#82119: Oct 31st 2015 at 3:59:07 AM

Just make it that hold B to charge, but can move while doing so?

Tap B to spam uncharged shots?

Shield/spot dodge to "save" the charge without firing.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#82120: Oct 31st 2015 at 4:37:08 AM

@Wanderlustwarrior:

No. Just, No.

You want to make Luigi more similar to Mario, in the worst way possible?! The FLUUD is one of the most hated attacks in the series.

And making Dr. Mario absurdly different would defeat the entire point of his inclusion in both of his appearances; he's a quick implementation. He's already Mis-blamed for eating up development time from other characters; we don't need to turn that mis-blame into justified blame.

And we've already been over Ganondorf. Most people love him the way he is because he's perhaps the most satisfying, hardest-hitting character in the entire roster (despite his competitive unviability). Project M gives him Dead Man's Volley, and lemme tell you, he feels neutered there.

edited 31st Oct '15 4:46:15 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#82121: Oct 31st 2015 at 5:56:46 AM

FLUUD is probably only really hated by casuals and even then I don't think it's really that hated anymore. Most people got used to it and should know how to use it to their advantage, there's really not much reason to hate it.

And if you don't like that it doesn't do damage you can just use the Scalding variant.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#82122: Oct 31st 2015 at 6:12:11 AM

[up]I don't like it because, when it was announced for Brawl, it just screamed "Were Still Relevant Dammit"; just adding something from a then-recent game for the sake of adding something from a then-recent game.

Besides, look at how awkwardly Tornado is squeezed into his D-air. It still doesn't look like it should be a standard attack!

It's the primary reason I secondary Doc and not normal Mario.

edited 31st Oct '15 6:14:12 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#82123: Oct 31st 2015 at 6:46:45 AM

Mario's D-Air is probably one of his best moves if top play I've seen says anything, besides I think FLUUD is a cool move. What's the problem with adding things from more recent games? Pit is doing the same thing in this game.

Hungryguy I am a Rad Reptile. from inside a cheese wheel Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
I am a Rad Reptile.
#82124: Oct 31st 2015 at 7:17:31 AM

Okay, I had weird dream last night and I can only remember the Smash related part. It was on a cross between the Ice Climber stage from Melee and Gaur Plains and Bowser Jr. used his Final Smash and turned into Kyurem of all things. Then he used a Final Smash as Kyurem to turn into White Kyurem. His roll looked very weird.

Call me butter, because I am on a roll! 3ds friend code: 5258-0885-3903 Wii U: Bowser Charizard
IceAnt573 Forever not amused. Since: May, 2015
Forever not amused.
#82125: Oct 31st 2015 at 7:52:49 AM

I don't think FLUDD is that terrible that I'd choose a character that has a significant drop in mobility, recovery, and combo ability.


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