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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#80401: Sep 25th 2015 at 6:39:38 AM

[up][up][up][up] So, you want less figurines because they could cost more, despite amiibos as a whole being cash cows, and having more variety means more people would buy them?

Yeah, I don't get you.

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#80402: Sep 25th 2015 at 6:48:55 AM

[up]x2 Fire Emblem only got released stateside because of Smash and Captain Falcon's Smash persona is hugely popular.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#80403: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:01:26 AM

Chrom is the tritagonist.

Lucina comes from the future to get the plot rolling and knows the most about the antagonist. Robin has a mysterious connection to the antagonist and is the only one who can truly defeat them, and Chrom is their friend.

I have a message from another time...
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#80404: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:02:11 AM

[up][up][up][up][up] And popularity means nothing if there isn't a concept that the character can fill to earn the right to be in Smash. Little Mac's concept for example is easy to see so whether he's less popular than Lucina or K. Rool doesn't matter too much. Chrom meanwhile is an example of a popular character who couldn't get into Smash because he lacked a concept behind him, so as to make him stand out from the others. Lucina was dangerously going the same way and was originally just going to be an alternate costume, but Sakurai found a concept for her that would make make it incredibly easy to implement her: "A beginner's Marth". And thus, she got a spot on the roster. However, "A beginner's Marth" won't make her stand out too much, and since clone characters are meant to be bonus characters who won't take away from actual development, there's an actual chance that Lucina won't appear in the next game.

[up] Lucina is the tritagonist.

edited 25th Sep '15 7:02:41 AM by Folt

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#80405: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:04:19 AM

[up][up]Nope. Chrom is the protagonist. It's been stated both by Word of God and by the fact that the story focuses on Chrom, not Robin. While Robin certainly plays a huge role, it is definitely Chrom's story.

This is doubly confirmed by the fact that it's been explicitly stated that Fates is the first game where your avatar is the protagonist as well.

[up]the reason she got a spot on the roster was because her hitboxes started becoming different first, and then he created the idea of making her a beginner's Marth.

edited 25th Sep '15 7:06:34 AM by EpicBleye

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#80406: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:05:40 AM

But Smash 4 spread the series' popularity more than ever before. There's a huge fandom for Lucina who've never played a Fire Emblem. I think they'll be more mindful of cutting characters in the future.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#80407: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:07:36 AM

Chrom is Awakening's Lyndis. Protagonist of the first arc, during which he meets the other main characters, who rise to their full prominence in the latter part of the game while he travels with them.

edited 25th Sep '15 7:08:15 AM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
MEKristian Since: Nov, 2009
#80408: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:11:26 AM

Except that Sakurai has mentioned, repeatedly, that he doesn't like having to cut characters. Combine that with the fact that Lucina is a popular character within FE's fanbase, and it becomes a harder choice to make, since for every person who says "good riddance to that useless Marth-clone, they added nothing to the game, and now their slot can be taken up by somebody who DESERVES it." there's going to be somebody saying "Why did you cut Lucina?"

It seems easy for you to forget that this is a Mascot fighter; these characters are more that just aspects of frame data, hitboxes and movesets, people like the characters themselves beyond this game.

And, as you've said, Lucina was one of the last-minute additions. If she was given more time in development, who's to say they couldn't change up her basic concept to something other than being a discount Marth?

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#80409: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:13:10 AM

I'm not sure that quite applies. Chrom has a lot more focus than either Robin or Lucina throughout the second act of the game (the Valm arc), being the only one with any real rapport with the Arc Villain Walhart. By contrast, Lyn is the full protagonist of the first arc and a supporting character afterwards.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#80410: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:15:04 AM

[up][up][up] Except Chrom keeps his importance even into the end arc: It's his decision to help Ferox hold back, and eventually take the fight to Walhart. It's him who sees and calls out Walhart for his decisions. The only point where Chrom arguably isn't the protagonist is during the arc where Validar seizes the Fire Emblem, and he goes straight back to importance once he decides to try his hand at the Awakening ritual. Lucina's role in it is decidedly less, and she only gets major focus at certain parts.

[up][up] That's always gonna be the case. While Lucina is popular, she isn't important enough to be given full focus, as the fact that she's only a clone shows, and the concept behind her. Heck, while she diverged and found a concept when she got different hitboxes, Sakurai would have reverted her back to being an alt of Marth (and with the same hitboxes as him) if it took too much time for her to be made separate.

edited 25th Sep '15 7:15:23 AM by Folt

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#80411: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:17:32 AM

Why did they even need to do the awakening ritual anyway? They already had an awakened Falchion.

I have a message from another time...
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#80412: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:24:14 AM

[up] They only had a half-awakened Falchion and the implication behind it is that it can't seal away Grima like the Exalted Falchion can (or how Robin can use Grima's power against him which was only possible in the first place because of the time travel shenanigans. The Awakening Ritual and the Exalted Flachion is the most consistent option they've got).

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
MEKristian Since: Nov, 2009
#80413: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:45:44 AM

Okay, so an "unimportant" character who hasn't received "full focus" in development should just be reduced to an Alt or not even bothered with in subsequent entries.

Sorry Falco, Wolf, Ganondorf, Roy, Dr. Mario and Luigi, looks like you're doomed to not appear in the fifth Smash game.

Sterok Since: Apr, 2012
#80414: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:48:23 AM

There's a difference between a 4th string character in a niche series and the main villain of one of Nintendo's most popular series/fucking Luigi.

MEKristian Since: Nov, 2009
#80415: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:50:56 AM

They're still character who started out as clones. Heck, Ganondorf in particularly only made it in to Melee because he had a model for a Gamecube tech demo AND it was in-line with Falcon's moveset.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#80416: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:51:32 AM

Fourth string? That's 1-3 strings below what anyone in the discussion was suggesting.

I have a message from another time...
TechPowah Just a simple hero from the room down the hall Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Just a simple hero
#80417: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:54:22 AM

Speaking of Ganon/Falcon, i'd love to see one of the other original Dragon King concepts emerge as their own original character. While the character who was Falcon's template was the only character programmed into the game proper, surely there are concepts or art of the other Dragon King characters that they could rely on.

edited 25th Sep '15 7:55:37 AM by TechPowah

The New Age of Awesome is here! Not even the sky is the limit!
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#80418: Sep 25th 2015 at 7:58:27 AM

I wonder if I missed anything in the last 30 pages!

...Oh. Chrom talk.

HeavyDDR Who's Vergo-san. from Central Texas Since: Jul, 2009
Who's Vergo-san.
#80419: Sep 25th 2015 at 9:50:01 AM

You missed a good chromversation.

Really though, discussion about this does need to emphasize that characters are more than just "what fighting game aspect do they bring to the table." While certainly something to keep in mind, and it's fair to have that aspect take priority on a personal level, the wider scope of the fanbase is happy to have characters for the sake of them being in the game. Only a small fraction of the Smash audience is vocal enough to suggest that characters need to be removed because they add "nothing."

That said, I do hope that future installments with Lucina fix her up a bit. She needs it. Her "gimmick" isn't really a gimmick and only keeps her down. Some serious stat changes need to be made if they're intent on keeping her a clone, which is likely. I wish they'd give her a completely different moveset though, with enough time there's enough from Awakening to really give her a solid combination of unique moves. I mean, Galeforce just screams to be a recovery move.

I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior
KSoniK Since: Jan, 2015
#80420: Sep 25th 2015 at 9:56:56 AM

Lucina is an actually popular character outside the game. Why do I have to keep repeating this fact over and over in this thread?

If Mewtwo and Wolf could get cut despite being one of the most popular characters within their respective franchises, then that kinda argument doesn't guarantee Lucina being in.

Again, I'm not saying that Lucina is guaranteed to be cut, just that it is faulty to say she cannot be when lots of characters have been cut despite Sakurai not wanting to cut those characters. Remember, Sakurai stated he didn't want to go out of his way to cut anyone in Smash 4 and yet we had 6 cuts. Regardless, even if she got cut due to time constraints, Lucina would most likely pull a Roy or Mewtwo and come back via DLC due to fan-demand. If it is anyone who I'm skeptical of returning to Smash period out of the newcomers, it is Dark Pit due to his Scrappy status among Smash fans whilst adding little to the roster, similar to Pichu, who unlike Doctor Mario was never planned to return to Brawl. Lucina is at worst a Base Breaker among the Smash fandom.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#80421: Sep 25th 2015 at 9:58:46 AM

[up][up]Did I miss any actual Smash news besides the chromversation?

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#80422: Sep 25th 2015 at 9:58:47 AM

Aw hell no. Don't cut Dark Pit. Cut his clone status. Give him moves from other weapon types from his game.

I have a message from another time...
Keybreak (Long Runner)
#80423: Sep 25th 2015 at 9:59:33 AM

It's part character, part fighter.

You could add a lot of characters that may all fight too similarly to be worth adding.

And you could add a lot of fighters that nobody would recognize and would take away from the frontrunning personality of the game.

I find the series to be less character-focused with every game, but at least new fighters are fun.

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#80424: Sep 25th 2015 at 10:00:02 AM

Turn Dark Pit into Alph, and give Viridi a slot...

Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#80425: Sep 25th 2015 at 10:05:19 AM

[up][up]It's kinda hard to take Sakurai's insistence that he prioritizes characters based on what new mechanics they add at face value, when Toon Link was one of the first characters confirmed after Smash 4's website went up and Falcondorf is still a thing. I don't doubt that's a part of it, but fundamentally, Smash is meant to be broad and have lots of characters who show up because they're interesting or beloved, not because they make Smash alone more interesting. That's a barrier that makes people less happy in the long run.

edited 25th Sep '15 10:07:02 AM by Pulse

I sure said that!

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