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Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#79376: Sep 3rd 2015 at 3:35:54 PM

Mewtwo's not a villain so much as an antagonist, and even then it pulled a Heel–Face Turn.

Also apparently Greninja is considered a villain based off of one of the Global Smash competitions (or whatever they're called) from a while back that had to do with villains.

edited 3rd Sep '15 3:37:11 PM by Karxrida

TechPowah Just a simple hero from the room down the hall Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Just a simple hero
#79377: Sep 3rd 2015 at 3:36:28 PM

I'm convinced that the Grandfather Clause is too strong an element for this series to do something like demote someone from playable to a costume. You either stay in the game as a wholly separate character on the character select screen, or you don't stay in the game.

It's the same way as the other things that only really stay in Smash Bros. because it's Smash Bros., like Jiggz still being in the game despite her in-game/anime presence being severely limited as of late (save for The Great Fairy Conversion of X/Y), or clones and semi-clones keeping the same moves even when they are no longer last-minute additions, and Marth and Roy still speaking Japanese.

The New Age of Awesome is here! Not even the sky is the limit!
powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#79378: Sep 3rd 2015 at 3:36:47 PM

Dedede and Wario are more like Anti-Heroes than they are villains.

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#79379: Sep 3rd 2015 at 3:38:02 PM

[up] Still doesn't stop them from having roles where they oppose the heroes, or games where they are the villains.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#79380: Sep 3rd 2015 at 3:38:55 PM

Dedede has fulfilled the antagonist role but was never evil, especially in recent Kirby games. Mega Knight is in a similar boat (bar the whole "take over Dreamland" thing from Super Star).

IceAnt573 Forever not amused. Since: May, 2015
Forever not amused.
#79381: Sep 3rd 2015 at 3:49:34 PM

I still do not believe it's entirely out of the realm of possibility for Lucina to get Luigified. It's pretty documented that Sakurai changes his mind on a couple of things (like Villager fitting in Smash for example). Also, everything is out the window if Smash 5 gets a new director and who knows what that person's way of thinking is.

Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#79382: Sep 3rd 2015 at 3:51:11 PM

[up][up] Dedede is not necessarily evil, but he does create some of the conflicts, some out of his own selfishness, that Kirby needs to stop. That alone means he does fall into the role of the bad guy who needs to be stopped sometimes.

[up] Likely not too dissimiliar to Sakurai's way of thinking.

edited 3rd Sep '15 3:54:36 PM by Folt

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#79383: Sep 3rd 2015 at 4:01:14 PM

Whoever directs Smash 5 will be asking Sakurai quite a lot of stuff no matter what anyway.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#79384: Sep 3rd 2015 at 4:11:20 PM

Huh, a couple of pages came up that I missed. Did something happen from when we were talking about customs?

Also, what about just allowing Miis and Palutena to have customs? How would that change the meta/tournament/glory scene?

edited 3rd Sep '15 4:11:58 PM by wanderlustwarrior

FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#79385: Sep 3rd 2015 at 4:12:45 PM

Greninja was probably considered a Bad Guy because of his Dark typing and to add more variety to that particular conquest.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#79386: Sep 3rd 2015 at 4:14:56 PM

Also, ninjas aren't usually someone you want to meet in a dark alley.

I have a message from another time...
kablammin45 Catch my shiny metal birb! from Misty Brook (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Catch my shiny metal birb!
#79387: Sep 3rd 2015 at 4:16:51 PM

I think the reason Sakurai relies on the Grandfather Clause so much is because he knows some group of people somewhere is gonna be marching up to his house with torches and pitchforks if he so much as changes the length of Wario's mustache or something. (That's probably why Ganondorf is still "Falcondorf", because Sakurai probably knows that interpretation of Ganondorf would be sorely missed by people who liked that moveset.)


@villains in Smash: Hey, if it turns out K. Rool is in Smash after all (despite the costume), that's a start.

edited 3rd Sep '15 4:18:27 PM by kablammin45

"I'm glad I don't wear shoes or else I'd have to always get shoes in two different sizes. ...If you know, you know!"
TechPowah Just a simple hero from the room down the hall Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Just a simple hero
#79388: Sep 3rd 2015 at 4:26:27 PM

Greninja being in the villains Conquest is probably a bit of a Dub-Induced Plot Hole on our end, considering that in Japan, Dark-Types are referred to as Aku/Evil-Types. tongue

The New Age of Awesome is here! Not even the sky is the limit!
powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#79389: Sep 3rd 2015 at 4:44:09 PM

[up]Well, Aku IS evil!

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#79390: Sep 3rd 2015 at 4:46:09 PM

I'd like either Lucina to get Luigified or Chrom to get in as the Marth/Ike midpoint. OR BOTH

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
IceAnt573 Forever not amused. Since: May, 2015
Forever not amused.
#79391: Sep 3rd 2015 at 5:11:11 PM

Currently reading the page's tier-induced scrappy list and the description for Robin says they have a projectile that takes too long to charge for weak damage in return. Even before Elthunder's buff, how was doing 9% off a half-second charge considered weak?

FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#79392: Sep 3rd 2015 at 5:23:35 PM

The problem is that having to charge to get a good projectile means things like Robin getting outcamped by Greninja happen

IceAnt573 Forever not amused. Since: May, 2015
Forever not amused.
#79393: Sep 3rd 2015 at 5:26:46 PM

[up]How far does an uncharged Water Shuriken reach? And what's the lowest charge of Water Shuriken that can clink with Elthunder?

FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#79394: Sep 3rd 2015 at 5:32:43 PM

I can't tell the exact range but it does clank at the most basic charge.

edited 3rd Sep '15 5:34:16 PM by FullMoon

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#79395: Sep 3rd 2015 at 5:41:34 PM

The point of Robin's projectiles isn't to rack up damage, generally. Thunder is a get-off-of-me attack, Elthunder is good for punishing rolls and creating distance, Arcthunder is incredible for leading into all sorts of combos, and Thoron is decent at killing and overwhelming enemy projectiles. But generally his projectiles aren't just fire-and-forget stuff to increase percents.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#79396: Sep 3rd 2015 at 6:14:58 PM

That's probably why Ganondorf is still "Falcondorf", because Sakurai probably knows that interpretation of Ganondorf would be sorely missed by people who liked that moveset.

Meanwhile Pokemon Trainer gets two/thirds of his moveset ripped out of his guts because who cares.

Also, what about just allowing Miis and Palutena to have customs? How would that change the meta/tournament/glory scene?

I can't really imagine that anybody in charge of tourneys would be willing to burn time on complex bans and accommodations just so two slots out of ~50 might be used more.

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#79397: Sep 3rd 2015 at 6:24:23 PM

Falcondorf has been a thing since 2001. Pokemon Trainer was quite niche, and very limiting with the stamina mechanic. It was FORCED.

Ivysaur and Squirtle would make decent DLC, but, all in all, what they had going for them was being part of Pokemon Trainer's lineup. Ivysaur is mechanically unusual, true, but neither it nor Squirtle have Charizard's status to survive past the gimmick. Remember that the Ice Climbers were axed out after 13 years as well because of their gimmick being unsustainable.

Customer Since: Sep, 2009
#79398: Sep 3rd 2015 at 6:27:29 PM

Meanwhile Pokemon Trainer gets two/thirds of his moveset ripped out of his guts because who cares.
Never forget.sad

Also, what about just allowing Miis and Palutena to have customs? How would that change the meta/tournament/glory scene?
Demonfly just touched on it, but there was/is a huge debate regarding this and so far I think the ruling is determined on a case-by-case basis right now (i.e. which tourney you go to and who the TO(s) is(are) there, and what their ruling is).

The basic complication is that it's easier (read: less of a headache for TOs to deal with) to allow the Mii Fighters to use their customs because they don't require the custom switch to be on to use their movesets, while Palutena does (which opens up questions like "If she can use her customs, why can't Mario? The switch is on right?" and many more).

This is why I wish Palutena was treated the same as the Mii fighters as far as Customs go. Like, they could have made Palutena unavailable until you gave her a moveset to use, or made her unlockable until you created a custom fighter (Mii or otherwise).

edited 3rd Sep '15 6:29:50 PM by Customer

FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#79399: Sep 3rd 2015 at 6:42:21 PM

The thing that makes Robin be seem as a poor character is just that he's curse with some of the worst mobility in the game and a very flawed projectile game.

Having a linear, exploitable recover doesn't do him any favors either.

Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#79400: Sep 3rd 2015 at 6:45:33 PM

(That's probably why Ganondorf is still "Falcondorf", because Sakurai probably knows that interpretation of Ganondorf would be sorely missed by people who liked that moveset.)
All seven of 'em.tongue

I sure said that!

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