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powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#79276: Sep 3rd 2015 at 5:53:33 AM

I'm one of the few who has Lucina and Dark Pit as some of his mains, I think.

I only ever use customs on Palutena and the Miis.

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#79277: Sep 3rd 2015 at 6:04:40 AM

[up][up][up][up] The Marth and Lucina threads aren't merged actually.

But that's pretty much the gist of it: Lucina is an easier to use, but more limited Marth, which means her potential peaks sooner and at a lower point than Marth. Since Marth's moveset was made for spacing, she essentially gets outclassed by him in just about every way to the point where there are little-to-no reasons to use her outside of preference.

It's even worse now that all attack parts that have a hit-lag modifier that's higher than 1 (with the exception of electric attacks) has had it decreased by a bit so that Marth and Roy's sweet-spot attacks are now safer on shield than before while Lucina's consistent attacks are as unsafe as ever.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#79278: Sep 3rd 2015 at 6:05:18 AM

Banning customs is just being championed by ZeRo because he profits from a stale metagame, never having to learn anything new so his position as champ remains forever unchallenged. Just like several stages were banned from Melee because of Mew2King not personally liking them.

Nothing will ever convince me otherwise.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#79279: Sep 3rd 2015 at 6:11:04 AM

[up]...or for the very real reasons I listed earlier? Evo even proved that customs were broken, as many of the game wins were just avoiding the opponent the whole time. A strategy that worked very well.

It's a general consensus that I've found across many competitive smash communities.

edited 3rd Sep '15 6:11:47 AM by EpicBleye

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#79280: Sep 3rd 2015 at 6:58:22 AM

[up]You know full well if ZeRo or M2K said "Battlefield should be banned", for example, suddenly everyone will start coming up with complex and logical-sounding arguments to ban Battlefield because nobody dares question the champs.

So I take any justification for their opinions with a huge grain of salt.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#79281: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:01:05 AM

Then if a certain move is broken, whether that move is Storm Punch or Timber Counter or Mach Tornado or what have you, ban that. I'd rather a character have 2 of their moves banned as opposed to 8. It seems like a simple enough concept that other games use.

I hear the argument that working out ban lists for the moves is overly complicated, and that just rings false to me.

edited 3rd Sep '15 7:04:44 AM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#79282: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:23:47 AM

[up][up]no, it wouldn't. Not only because it'd make no sense, but because ZeRo isn't as powerful in Sm4sh as M2K is for melee, and M2K isn't the only big name in there.

Also, they're the top of their respective metagames anyway, i think they'd know what is and isn't healthy for the meta.

You're being unnecessarily and unrealistically bitter.

[up]the problem is that each character's tier would change drastically with even one custom change. So then you'd need to make a placement for every possible combination to accommodate for such a drastically wide difference in viability. 3 customs per 4 moves on 48 characters... Yeah.

Plus the fact that there is no way for every combination to develop in a metagame like that, plus the fact that the person actually needs the customs unlocked.

The bans seem simple enough, though. I can't personally think of a reason the ban list would be too complicated.

edited 3rd Sep '15 7:27:53 AM by EpicBleye

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Daydre That's just how it is on this bitch of an earth from in my house Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
That's just how it is on this bitch of an earth
#79283: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:25:57 AM

[up] I know we shouldn't compare the two, but Pokemon's metagame says hi.

we will survive.
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#79284: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:27:59 AM

[up][up]Just like it made no sense to ban Kongo Jungle 64. Just like it made no sense to reduce the Counterpick list to one stage that's also very close to getting the axe.

If there's one thing I've learned from all my time in competitive Smash, it's that bans are arbitrary as fuck. And if you're willing to support them just because they're the top players, you're exactly the type of person I'm talking about who would advocate banning Battlefield with wordy arguments if one of them suggested it.

edited 3rd Sep '15 7:29:30 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#79285: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:29:00 AM

I'm not too up on tier lists; are they just a list of who's better, or are they actually used as a part of gameplay, the way Pokemon's meta game does? See, the Pokemon meta game uses tiers like weight classes, and you can't use something in a tier lower than its rank.

I have a message from another time...
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#79286: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:29:21 AM

pokemon's meta is shit. They're two completely different types of games lol.

[down]I laughed when i found out. The pokemon meta is stupid.

Smash tier lists are viability rankings in tournaments. The higher up you are, the more likely they are to be able to win tournaments. Though skill surpasses tiers, obviously.

[up][up]no, they aren't. When a stage is banned its from a collective consensus of the competitive smash community. When a top level player advocates for its ban, it's because they know that the stage is unfair/unhealthy to the metagame, and only adds validity to the ban.

Just because you don't get why they banned it, doesn't mean that the ban was arbitrary or wasn't reasonable.

edited 3rd Sep '15 7:35:48 AM by EpicBleye

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#79287: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:34:19 AM

Alright. I was wondering. So I suppose something that complicated the tier lists isn't as big a problem as it would be in that meta game.

What's hilarious is how the most recent Pokemon game introduced a mon so broken that they banned it from their Uber tier, which used to function as a ban list on its own.

I have a message from another time...
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#79288: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:37:07 AM

[up][up]You're just refusing to admit that maybe the Smash back rooms just might be corrupt and profit-driven.

Any competitive scene where the top players have absolute power over the rules (and don't pretend they don't) is not a healthy competitive scene at all.

Every moment that passes in the hollow shell of the Melee metagame gets closer and closer to truly being "Fox Only, Final Destination". The year is already 20XX.

edited 3rd Sep '15 7:44:34 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#79289: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:44:45 AM

Oh my god.

I don't even go on smash back rooms, i just watch, analyze, and play the meta in the background. I don't even give a crap about big names. I have no investment in defending them.

So please don't accuse me of stuff, ecpecially when it's untrue.

and 20XX is a stupid meme.

edited 3rd Sep '15 7:45:57 AM by EpicBleye

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#79290: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:46:46 AM

All I know is, I don't trust the back rooms at all.

ZeRo is currently advocating banning Omega stages. OMEGA STAGES. And of course everyone's going along with it. Does the spectator's sanity mean nothing anymore?!

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#79291: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:46:46 AM

The year is not 20XX. We have not had the first annual robot tournament yet.

[up] depends on the specific Omega, really. Some are platforms, some are pillars, some have this little lip thing on the underside. I don't pretend to fully understand the physics, but they're not identical.

edited 3rd Sep '15 7:48:29 AM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
Daydre That's just how it is on this bitch of an earth from in my house Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#79293: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:49:27 AM

[up][up]So what if they're not identical? If a stage isn't broken in its own right, don't fucking ban it!

If Omegas are banned in 4, there goes both Yoshi's Story and Dream Land in Melee. They're no different from Battlefield than Omegas are from each other!

(And yes, I am aware of the differences.)

edited 3rd Sep '15 7:52:35 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#79294: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:51:52 AM

Some may be broken due to breaking some recoveries. Again, game physics that I don't fully understand, so I'm speculating.

Unless he's advocating the ban of, like, all versions of Omega, and FD with them. Or something. Is that what he's said?

edited 3rd Sep '15 7:53:01 AM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#79295: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:52:47 AM

Jesus Christ. Can't some of the top players just shape up?

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#79296: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:52:57 AM

[up][up]Yup. Ban all omegas except for FD itself for consistency's sake.

[up]Nope. If they did that, someone might get not-bored-to-death enough to challenge their authority.

edited 3rd Sep '15 7:54:38 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
MEKristian Since: Nov, 2009
#79297: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:56:25 AM

Today on the TV tropes Smash thread; why I don't bother with the competitive aspects of the community.

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#79298: Sep 3rd 2015 at 7:58:12 AM

[up][up]The problem with certain Omega stages is that they severely fuck up some characters recoveries, at no fault to the player. So by banning those omega stages, it keeps those characters useable.

Oh, and Rosalina and Luma isn't one of the characters that get screwed, by the way, if you wanted to accuse Zero of trying to mess with the metagame to stay on top.

[up]it's awful, and I'm one of the people in it.

edited 3rd Sep '15 7:59:03 AM by EpicBleye

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#79299: Sep 3rd 2015 at 8:00:19 AM

I can agree with that.

However, banning all Omegas, even the ones that are identical to FD, is silly.

Omegas should've been Battlefield clones anyway.

I have a message from another time...
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#79300: Sep 3rd 2015 at 8:03:04 AM

[up][up]Thank you for the potential ammunition.

Seeing what's become of Melee's once-entertaining meta makes me physically ill. And the same damn thing's happening to 4. So it's more than a bit of a sore point for me.

And as much potential as Project M had as a safe refuge, Nintendo's making sure those tournaments never see the light of day.

edited 3rd Sep '15 8:03:30 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer

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