TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Super Smash Bros.

Go To

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#79252: Sep 2nd 2015 at 7:44:01 PM

I'd definitely agree that Lightweight helps Palutena a lot.

However, there's still the issues of her attacks being slow.

edit: Speaking of awkward segues, I really wish character costume DLC was a thing. I'd love to be able to play as Hot Ryu from SFV. Or Pajama Toon Link. Or Armored Pit. Or Masked Dedede. Or...

edited 2nd Sep '15 7:48:01 PM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#79253: Sep 2nd 2015 at 7:48:31 PM

So if it's not just a lack of kill moves, what are all the problems of Palutena?

And Zelda and Samus, for that matter? We have already discussed big, floaty Mewtwo, and I did come up with some ideas to help it.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#79254: Sep 2nd 2015 at 7:49:14 PM

Not sure I could say. I've not played her enough to really say for sure.

I have a message from another time...
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#79255: Sep 2nd 2015 at 7:50:05 PM

The thing about banning custom moves is just that it kinda begins a whole new thing, like "if we're gonna ban Timber Counter, why don't we ban Sheik's needles?" and so on, since there are some moves in the default meta that can be considered broken or at very least very exploitable (Needle Storm, Flip Jump, Quick Attack, Spin Dash...)

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#79256: Sep 2nd 2015 at 7:54:12 PM

Exactly. And if you ban customs entirely, you can't do anything about standard moves.

Of course, parallels with Pokemon aren't quite equivalent, whatever I say, since that game has hundreds of moves.

I have a message from another time...
powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#79257: Sep 2nd 2015 at 7:55:30 PM

RE: Mewtwo and customs: Ah, I took that too literally.

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#79258: Sep 2nd 2015 at 8:01:40 PM

It's pretty clear by now that it's either going to be all customs or none of them in the competitive meta, and it looks like it's gonna be the latter.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#79259: Sep 2nd 2015 at 8:04:41 PM

That's bad.

I have a message from another time...
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#79260: Sep 2nd 2015 at 8:29:51 PM

Yeah, sucks.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
BurntMario Oh hai TV Tropes from Your nightmares Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Oh hai TV Tropes
#79261: Sep 2nd 2015 at 9:19:32 PM

To be fair, since custom moves are two entire derivatives of a character's moveset (in Palutena's and the Mii Fighters' cases, two completely different movesets), I'm not surprised that they seem unbalanced compared to the default choices (which, of course, you're going to use most of the time).

It seems like a lot of work to tweak two more sets of special moves, which can explain why they tend to range from broken to borderline useless.

Call me Willy Whistle 'cause I can't speak, baby. Something in TV Tropes really drove me crazy.
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#79262: Sep 2nd 2015 at 9:23:05 PM

I mean,

As a Greninja player I don't get too much from customs especially now that regular shuriken was buffed but the others weren't, so a customs off environment would be the best for me.

So that's at least something that makes me support the default meta.

BurntMario Oh hai TV Tropes from Your nightmares Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Oh hai TV Tropes
#79263: Sep 2nd 2015 at 9:42:17 PM

Link's Shocking Spin custom for his Spin Attack brings his recovery to 64!Link/Little Mac levels of bad, for instance.

Call me Willy Whistle 'cause I can't speak, baby. Something in TV Tropes really drove me crazy.
BlitzTrain Since: Apr, 2014
#79264: Sep 2nd 2015 at 10:03:23 PM

I like the idea of customs, but never actually use them and if I did the potential for someone not having them if I ever played anywhere besides my house would be discouraging anyway.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#79265: Sep 2nd 2015 at 10:04:37 PM

I mean, even though the characters I use often have maybe one custom between them that I want to use, I'm defiinitely in favor of more options over fewer. And for some characters, like Bowser or Ganondorf or Palutena, having access to select customs completely changes the game for them, and I'd like to see characters given their full potential.

I have a message from another time...
Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#79266: Sep 2nd 2015 at 10:04:59 PM

I really only enjoy them on Palutena and the Mii Fighters, though I main R.O.B. and Duck Hunt, two characters who really prefer sticking to the defaults.

I sure said that!
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#79267: Sep 2nd 2015 at 10:06:01 PM

I dunno. Mega Gunmen is pretty nice on Duck Hunt. Amplifies their projectile-blocking abilities at the cost of speed.

I have a message from another time...
IceAnt573 Forever not amused. Since: May, 2015
Forever not amused.
#79268: Sep 2nd 2015 at 10:07:13 PM

Problems with Zelda: Lacking a Combo throw, lack of a quick, safe aerial that has a big hitbox like DK's neutral air (seriously get rid of either Zelda's fair or bair. She doesn't need two lightning kicks), has a hurtbox too big for her lack of speed and weight (Zelda is in the top 15 for lightest character and her run speed is like 5th worst). While her air speed is much better, what is there to approach with? Din's Fire is a bad projectile that anybody can pretty easily shield and Phantom Slash would be so much better if you can hold the charge. Zelda before patches was even worse because some of her smash attacks wouldn't connect well leaving you doing like 1-4%.

BurntMario Oh hai TV Tropes from Your nightmares Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Oh hai TV Tropes
#79269: Sep 2nd 2015 at 10:09:55 PM

I think Mega Gunman is the only custom move (barring Palutena and the Mii Fighters) shown in a promotional trailer. Remember when Duck Hunt summoned that abnormally large gunman during the move's introduction?

Call me Willy Whistle 'cause I can't speak, baby. Something in TV Tropes really drove me crazy.
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#79270: Sep 2nd 2015 at 11:17:43 PM

So if it's not just a lack of kill moves, what are all the problems of Palutena?
What are not problems of Palutena? She's slow, weak, and most of her moves leave her open for days at a time. I'm honestly surprised she's not dead last in the tier list.

I'm just bitter because I like her in theory but she's impossible for me to play with.

BlitzTrain Since: Apr, 2014
#79271: Sep 2nd 2015 at 11:50:00 PM

So I only just noticed Greninja's side tilt can be angled up and down slightly. Not sure I'll find much use for it but seems like I should have noticed that by now!

The rest of you probably knew that already, but any one else have moments like that?

Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#79272: Sep 2nd 2015 at 11:53:25 PM

Many of them.

It's usually something you can expect by anyone that uses their limbs for that particular attack, and it extends to F-Smashes as well.

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
KSoniK Since: Jan, 2015
#79273: Sep 3rd 2015 at 3:34:07 AM

Yeah, the issue with Lucina is that differences gave her, at best, the implicit role of "close-range Marth". And then Roy came along and reclaimed his explicit role of "close-range Marth". And now Lucina has no home.

The thing about Lucina is that one of the few differences between her and Marth is that she lacks hit-lag modifiers.

This pretty much explains what I am talking about

You can read up a proper explanation elsewhere, but in short Marth's sourspot attacks are made safer on shield due to a modifier that Lucina does not have, negating her extra damage advantage that would otherwise equate to more safety. Marth's sweetspot attacks are modified negatively for him, but the higher damage and shield knock back difference is pretty noticeable, still resulting in tippers/sweetspots being safer on shields than Lucina spacing at the same distance. The difference may not seem massive, 2-3 frames extra disadvantage for Lucina over Marth's sourspots, but that can be the difference between winning and losing. Lucina is not easier to be aggressive with for this very reason

In short, due to lack of hit-lag modifiers, Lucina's attacks are less safe on shield than Marth, meaning she does not benefit from any other playstyle other than Marth's. Combined with the general lack of differences and it is pretty obvious in hindsight why the whole "Lucina took Roy's role" never really worked as an argument- her gameplay was never similar to Roy in the first place, but rather she played like an easier, but less unique version of Marth's playstyle.

Roy didn't really cause Lucina to be "redundant" when she never had her own gameplay niche to begin with, which is why, unlike any other clone/semi-clone characters in Smash 4 or Brawl, her and Dark Pit's metagame threads are merged with Marth and Pit's respectively on Smash Boards due to the fact that even within high-level play, the differences they have aren't enough for them to have their own gameplay.

(Though it's really ironic that whilst Dark Pit and Lucina being one of the most beloved characters in their own franchises, they are easily among the most poorly received Smash 4 newcomers)

edited 3rd Sep '15 4:32:50 AM by KSoniK

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#79274: Sep 3rd 2015 at 4:46:24 AM

I like the ruleset that allows one custom move per character. Makes stuff like Explosive Baloon Trip and Storm Punch have an opportunity cost, at least.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#79275: Sep 3rd 2015 at 5:38:15 AM

The problem with custom moves is that:

  • Custom moves create such an absurdly complicated and large metagame/tier list, that it would be impossible to gauge the progress of the competitive level of play.
  • Banning custom moves is complicated as well; in deciding what is/isn't broken, if certain customs should be banned, if only certain pairs of customs should be banned, what a ban list would mean, how to apply it, etc.
  • Many custom moves can effectively create games where the entire goal is to run away, creating very long and boring games. This strategy is also very hard to beat.

I love customs, and I love playing with customs, but it won't ever be competitive.

edited 3rd Sep '15 5:39:02 AM by EpicBleye

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

Total posts: 148,710
Top