Midna and Ghirahim made it as assist trophies, but, lets be realistic, Sheik made it because she was Zelda as a ninja, and thus the character was built with the transformation mechanic in mind.
As big as a franchise it is, Zelda runs into the problem that it is quite devoid of recurring characters. Again, what is left, Vaati to antagonize Toon Link in the same artstyle?
Burnt Mario, that's why I thought to link that article calling for people to be less vitriolic towards others over what characters they like and support.
Chrom could have worked as an Ike alt, if you boil it down to it; never saw Marth pull out an Aether, for example, and his style is NOT a graceful one, but rather quite focused on brute force. Lucina disguised herself as, and went by the name of Marth, Tiki noticed a massive resemblance (not found in Chrom)... so yeah, Lucina is quite a tad Marthier than Chrom (hell, the female Great Lord class is weaker but faster and more skilled than the male one, despite using the same weapons).
And, I'm not sure about how alts make a character have less skins. Specially when Wario had an alt in Brawl with more skins than in 4...
edited 20th Aug '15 7:50:11 PM by Eriorguez
The removal of some of Wario's costumes never particularly made sense to me anyway. Is Little Mac the only non-Mii Fighter character allowed to have more than eight costumes?
Call me Willy Whistle 'cause I can't speak, baby. Something in TV Tropes really drove me crazy.That's not why Sheik stayed, however. She's highly popular and has no real reason to leave at all. It may be somewhat competitive based too, but she's played as highly often regardless of which of the 4 regular games you play as. Zelda didn't make it in without Sheik either. Neither got in without each other and both were important to the choice. The transformation was the original reason.
Being that Smash 4 could not support transformation gameplay, they had to be split. Being both are severely popular characters, it was clear they were going to stay. There was no limitations keeping them down. Neither were one-off in Smash either. There was no reason to make Sheik a skin. Nor was there was a single reason to reduce Impa to a skin as well. She's even potential for DLC(as is regular Moblin Ganon) because of being far too unique for a costume. Neither would work as a costume as each other because they are too different. The only game they were remotely similar was OOT. Sheik has already proven to be far different from Impa as of HW, had a clone of her intended to be in Brawl as well, and is still one of the most popular characters in Smash of all time. It's ludicrous to think she'd be cut for a far less important recurring character who doesn't even have a highly notable single design. Impa has had more than one significantly different design, meaning to add her would to be pick one very particular game, and base her moveset off of either that game(which provides little to work with, outside of HW which came out very late during 4's development, and nearly every character was decided by then, including Sheik), or to do some combination of each game, which also means she can't be anything like Sheik bar slightly similar physical builds, but only if they used her OOT design. Impa also doesn't have a TP design, the main focus as of now for Zelda characters save the Toon ones.
Likewise, maybe I didn't make this clear enough; Alts cannot have a single difference in their movesets and that applies to the character choices too. The only reason Bowser Jr. has 7 alts as they already work well by being in the Koopa Clown Car, which is what the moveset is entirely based upon. The fact that Impa didn't get so much as a trophy or sticker during Brawl already proved that Sakurai had zero intentions of using her at all to replace Sheik. She was nowhere near important enough to him. If there was no TP Sheik design, we wouldn't have really gotten a replacement for Sheik because there was no was no one in the artstyle we wanted. Unless it was maybe Tetra at most. And there's nothing to show she was ever considered to be playable at all either, which makes her very unlikely to have stood a chance.
I would love it if we got a new Zelda character, but there's little to note that has a fair chance. They have to be widely well known at this point, and have quite a legacy of multiple games. Vaati is fairly niche among the villains(even if he's the only major antagonist besides Ganon, he's not that well known). Impa is the only other beyond Ganon to fill the shoes of being the same kind of legacy. Clones are a little different as they are just filler, or were going to be. But a Young Zelda and a Young Sheik overall wouldn't have been too weird, seeing as how there's multiple Young Zeldas, and the Young Sheik was just because he had no intentions of splitting Sheik and Zelda up till 4's development, seeing that as a focus of their design(which is also why they were fairly unbalanced. Sadly, Zelda has yet to be made fairly good... at all).
Yeah, Wario is weird. They also removed his only Wario Land-inspired attack as well. I don't know why Little Mac is the only one to have 16 costumes. Maybe Sakurai had intended way more alts and only Little Mac got that far. Really weird.
edited 20th Aug '15 7:58:40 PM by Irene
Shadow?Irene, dude, Brevity Is Wit. Entire essays are not necessary for trying to extrapolate information about videogame development in a site about tropes.
edited 20th Aug '15 8:06:27 PM by Elbruno
"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."I was just about to say. I fear she's having an aneurysm.
Seriously, though, I feel like there could have been a way to condense all of those points.
edited 20th Aug '15 8:13:48 PM by BurntMario
Call me Willy Whistle 'cause I can't speak, baby. Something in TV Tropes really drove me crazy.I've said this before, but I would be totally cool with them adding a lot of clones that had just slight variations to existing characters. I don't care if it'd bloat the roster, it would be a great way to include a lot of characters that fans want to see while minimizing the strain on the dev team and giving us more in character diversity.
Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.That's why I want Pichu back. It's not just that I loved playing as him, but he's easy to make, highly popular overall, has a gimmick that works spectacularly in Smash 4 due to rage, but is also iconic and the Gen II mascot.
I'm trying to think of other easy clones. Daisy doesn't work, since she doesn't do most of what Peach would do besides maybe slap someone and use the sports items. Donkey Kong Jr. for Donkey Kong could work. Young Link wouldn't work with Toon Link there. Blood Falcon could if he was more like Dark Pit/Lucina in application, and the fact he has spikes on his shoulder can easily separate him from regular Captain Falcon alone. Could give him a different shade of regular red too to help separate their costumes. Bass would work easily for Mega Man(even as an Alt, honestly. Treble easily can do what Rush does. Only issue is the Up Customs, but that can be fixed by using a Batton for Beat and I forgot what the last Up Custom was. XD). I'm not sure there's a decent way to make Ms. Pac-Man separate. Akuma is obvious for Ryu(Ken is actually more unique, strangely enough), imo. Samus has Dark Samus or a Hunter, perhaps.
That's all I can think of.
Hyrule Warriors certainly helped make Tetra actually do more than swing from a rope and tie people up a bit. She had the potential before, but barely any actual onscreen stuff. Would explain why she never got chosen for Smash.
edited 20th Aug '15 8:37:35 PM by Irene
Shadow?
x5 I wouldn't mind as long as the clones are last-minute additions that add to an already large, substantial roster and make sense as clones. Dr. Mario works because he is the same as Mario. Dark Pit is literally a clone of Pit in his home series. While Lucina probably makes the least sense as a completely separate character from Marth (as the cloniest of all to boot), it helps to know that she did assume the Marth name at the beginning of Awakening.
Adding clone characters simply to increase the amount in the roster wouldn't work as well for me, especially when the clones are characters that could have been unique (*cough* *cough* Ganondorf *cough* *cough*).
There's the Mega Ball for Bass. It even comes from the same game as Tornado Hold.
edited 20th Aug '15 8:39:49 PM by BurntMario
Call me Willy Whistle 'cause I can't speak, baby. Something in TV Tropes really drove me crazy.Impa could work as another Zelda rep, if they draw from Hyrule Warriors.
Her Giant Blade is her main weapon there, but the Naginata is so cool and very different...
Either way, I hope Sheik is revamped next game around, using the HW design and having that harp blast thing for her Final Smash instead of Light Arrows. If Ganondorf hasn't appeared in another Zelda game by that point he could also use his awesome mane of hair instead of using the TP design a third time.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!...They just got done inventing more toys for Sheik that have never had any basis in anything.
"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy![]()
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That's the first brief post I've seen from you in a while. And yes, it was.
I only post brief posts if there's little to say. Otherwise, I will say all my points because not saying them is ultimately disrespectful. What's the point of replying in a debate if you skip on anything important? It's ignoring points that should not be ignored.
Sheik was in there as the other half of Zelda. And Zelda was in there as the other half of Sheik. They got in solely because they were a transformation character. That was their main reason. The fact both were important characters during OOT helped immensely too.
Tetra was important, but she didn't fight at all besides offscreen stuff. She didn't have anything to stand out at that time, unless it was repeating the gimmick of a transformation character(and Toon Zelda would clearly just be a clone. He still has to make up a moveset for Tetra. As for why she's not in 4, you got me on that one). Likewise, pistols are too realistic, and he probably couldn't think of a way to make a cutlass(did she even really do anything with it in WW? I can't remember her even unsheathing it at all...) a really unique moveset. Take a look at how easily he made Greninja. He clearly finds ninjas super easy to make movesets for compared to pirates.
edited 20th Aug '15 8:57:01 PM by Irene
Shadow?I just would like to say that the development period of Hyrule Warriors was majorly unfortunate for the Zelda characters in Smash. There's so many ideas in Hyrule Warriors that I would've liked to see in Smash, that would never have got in because it was being made after all of Smash 4's stuff was finalized.
Impa with a badass pair of not-ninja movesets using a giant blade or naginata.
Sheik with a character-unique moveset making use of the harp's magic songs as well as ninja blades, and/or being a skin for Zelda (the player can't use Harps as Zelda or Rapiers as Sheik, but the AI does it a bunch in Adventure mode).
Really cool ideas for how the Wind Waker can be used as a primary weapon
Ganondorf carving up everything with a pair of demonic swords, and evil magic, and super-powerful punches (like, I swear, his 4-combo is just a Warlock Punch, aimed at a big ball of magic).
Masked Link (though he only uses the one mask).
And, coming next year, Tetra
, complete with cutlass and pistols (guess they aren't too realistic for Hyrule Warriors, but whatever).
Of course, that's not the end of the world. All that cool stuff is playable, in HW. Just makes me think what could've been with different timing. Or what could be in a sequel, who knows?
Yes, Mega Man's 3rd Up Custom is the Tornado Hold, AKA Tengu Man's weapon. You may be thinking of Tornado Blow; Tornado Man's weapon from MM 9. Hold creates a stationary pillar of whirlwinds which Mega Man can use as a springboard of sorts. Blow hits the whole screen with whirlwinds and momentarily multiplies the strength of Mega Man's jump.
edited 20th Aug '15 9:25:30 PM by Enlong
I have a message from another time...A secondary version of Ganondorf with swords would be cool. The original version is pretty much guaranteed to stay a clone to a degree. Wouldn't want to make players of previous games feel alienated.
Maybe Toon Ganondorf complete with some moves from HW itself? That'd be awesome. He's the original double sword user among the Ganondorfs. Only regular Moblin Ganon has used two swords otherwise(and is in fact the first version of Ganon or Ganondorf to use a sword at all. No, the tech demo does not legitimately count. I am glad that it led to some cool artwork for Ganondorf in Melee, though, as its model showed up during the victory screen where Ganondorf showed off that huge blade).
Also, to be fair, HW was made by Tecmo-Koei. They don't have the same views Sakurai has.
Yeah, must've been Tornado Blow. I blame Marvel VS Capcom. I always think of Tornado Hold as an attack instead of a recovery.
edited 20th Aug '15 9:30:44 PM by Irene
Shadow?Damn, took the words out of my mouth. Reworking Ganondorf entirely would draw ire thanks to the grandfather clause, so why not keep current Ganondorf and add a Toon Ganondorf or another incarnation that gets swords, magic and all that?
Also, I know we're all petered out on Fire Emblem characters, but I can't see this
and not think of the moveset potential. (That's Kanna, but she's using Kamui's Dark Prince class, so it would be equally valid for Kamui.)

Impa has only two real chances. Being a Sheik skin or her own character. Let's not degrade either character by making them a lame alt when they are severely different potential-wise. Impa has more than enough unique appearances and abilities that neither could be a serious alt of eachother. This is the same reason why Chrom is not a costume. He looks similar to Ike, but his abilities are that of Marth. The Mii Fighter costume is okay because they're just extra stuff, not a true representation of the character.
Lucina would've been okay as an alt since she is pretty similar to Marth overall. Dark Pit made little sense since his abilities are different enough. Dr. Mario is quite different from Mario now. Only one alt could've worked among those that got promoted as staying as an alt at best.
Alph only works because he does the same things as Olimar(they did forget to reskin the ship, I admit). But otherwise, they have no real differences. They did intend to add the Rock Pikmin, but that might've just been an extra Pikmin and not guarantee Alph to be separated. He also would've had to be both different enough and be easy to clone as well. With only Rock Pikmin available(which requires a new model and hitboxes work) to help differentiate them, and Tether Recoveries taken out, and for that matter, Winged Pikmin being a focus for the new Up B, all that was left was one Pikmin to work with. Even worse is that they'd have to work on 4 new costumes too. It wasn't hard to split off the other 3 alts at all. But Alph would've required a lot more work than the rest.
Shadow?