Oh yeah, I forgot that they made the Golden Sun series. I usually think of the Mario sports games whenever somebody mentions the company Camelot. My first thought was that the video was referring to King Arthur or something.
Anyways, despite not liking GS, that model was pretty nice, and if Isaac ever joined the fight, I'm sure he'd be a really interesting Smasher.
edited 20th Aug '15 1:48:31 PM by Customer
First-party franchises don't have any rules for inclusion besides "Does Sakurai want their content in?" Third Party is highly different. That's why they have very extreme rules of what character can be playable alone. They are not as important as first party by design. That's not their purpose. They were always treated as guests. It's why they generally have less overall content(that includes quite literally everything, characters, assist trophies, trophies, stickers, songs, and stages) than most first party franchises(Donkey Kong Country is somewhat shafted bar courses, to be fair. No idea why, really).
Remember, the series is still a Nintendo Fighting game with third party guests as well as many party elements. That did not ever change. Sonic being in twice only means he's a highly notable guest that deserved to come back. He's no Nintendo character, which still puts him and his franchise in the exact same area that the rest of the third party franchises are in. Non-Nintendo content. There's no reason to treat them like first party content when they aren't actually that special beyond the character alone(as each character got in for being significant or had a special reason that wasn't pure iconicness. This isn't really applicable at all for any first party characters. They had tons of reasons for being included. Some because they're iconic. Some because they were easy to make and were basically filler. Others were unique ideas. And there's the odd entries that are meant to surprise us).
That can't be pulled with third parties. If they aren't iconic enough(Snake still had this at least), especially for DLC alone, then they have practically no chance at this point(because they need to sell to enough people to make the workload worth it). In addition, adding a second character from any third party franchise becomes severely unfair to the rest. It opens a huge can of worms and tons of complaints. Adding in Tails beyond an AT at best means people will constantly clamor for more Pac-Man, Mega Man, and Street Fighter characters. Fact of the matter is, the franchise being treated fairly does have relevance to Sakurai. He is not a fan of overrepping franchises at all. This is part of why we didn't get King Dedede in Melee(the other way he didn't have enough time to finish him, even if all the clones weren't done). He doesn't want to overrepresent his own series. A guest franchise isn't going to be any better. The best thing he can do is find another franchise 3rd party-wise to look at, since it avoids major complaints. It really doesn't matter if it's Bandai-Namco, Sega, Konami, or whatever. It's less of a problem because he's not treating a purely guest franchise any more special than another. Really, the only annoying thing that happened is our Street Fighter content was severely lackluster, but that's justified due to having only a decent amount of time to finish 3 characters and 2 courses. Anything else would require more time, although it'd be nice to have more Trophies and a Assist Trophy(assuming Capcom USA. is okay with it. For all we know, they only were okay with that much content anyway).
@Powerpuffbats: Get both. They're excellent games. You can connect both later for a continued game that lets you get further content overall. Including a very difficult boss fight.
edited 20th Aug '15 4:35:47 PM by Irene
Shadow?![]()
Yeah, if you plan to play either of the GBA Golden Sun games, you may as well get both. They seemed like they were intended to be one whole game anyway, though if you can only get one, I recommend the second game.
I'd also suggest getting Dark Dawn on the DS, since it's basically the same game as the first two, just new characters and a new plot line.
edited 20th Aug '15 5:47:27 PM by Customer
He also just happened to be iconic.
But that has no relevance to my main overall point. All third party franchises are still guest franchises. They aren't Nintendo franchises. That's why they can't just throw any content they want into there. It all has to be licensed and approved, including the movesets(unless the particular company doesn't care, of course).
Snake was very lucky. Also, both Sonic and Snake were asked to be in Melee, so Sonic would've been in Brawl regardless of Snake anyway. That just made it less odd when Sonic showed up, since a 3rd party was shown from the start. It didn't come entirely out of left field at all. Sonic is still was of the most iconic characters of all time, as well as the fact that he's been partnering with Nintendo stuff for a while now. Him and Mario are pretty much friends and have their own crossover series. Which is neat.
That said, Super Smash Bros. isn't like that crossover. It's very different. It's a celebration of Nintendo, and just happens to have some guests as well. Sakurai has even referred to Assist Trophies as guests as well during Brawl, which is kind of strange. That said, every 3rd party franchise so far in Smash 4 has had 1 character, and exactly 1 course per game(sometimes they use the same course for both games, though). They haven't gotten any special treatment at all. Ryu couldn't even get more than few Trophies, a stage(one per console, although a repeated stage), very lackluster music(nothing outside of Ryu and Ken's various themes), and literally zero Assist Trophies. Sakurai is not really treating 3rd party franchises with any unique treatment at all at this point. Again, the specific franchises have only gotten one Assist Trophy entirely. And some haven't even gotten a regular Item at all(there's zero Pac-Man specific items, just stuff from Bandai-Namco, who helped make the game, which explains it being in. It's not a Pac-Man thing). I can't see any good reason to treat any third party franchise more special than the rest. There's justifications for not putting heavy content for DLC ones, at least. It's a lot of work, and they already have a finished game otherwise, so adding stuff beyond the required fighter trophies, maybe slight extra content(Ken Trophy) and a stage(with a reasonable enough song list) isn't necessary at all. Not that it wouldn't be nice, but priority.
Mii Fighter costumes are very different as every third party character pretty much are guys who had little chance to be playable anyway. Or were considered(Heihachi). They're just content from the various companies. Notably, there's still no Street Fighter costumes either, so Capcom USA is probably just difficult to work with, or they are still working on 'em. No idea why we've had one Sega DLC(Virtua Fighter stuff), though.
edited 20th Aug '15 5:47:24 PM by Irene
Shadow?@Irene: You're not really offering any good evidence for why you think any of that is true. All you've been offering are reasons why you don't think a third-party series can ever get a second character. And yet, you think your own opinions and theories are sufficient to disprove other people's opinions and theories. At least, that's what it seems to me.
Also, you said that Sakurai is not a fan of over-representation. My rebuttal: Mario and Pokemon.
De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem tend to also be points of contention for that.
I also decided to make my eShop purchase for the week to be Wario Ware: Touched so I can play the game where my current Avatar debuted. I also just heard the original version of Ashley's Song and...while I like, I prefer Brawl's version of the tune.
edited 20th Aug '15 6:52:16 PM by powerpuffbats
AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!Neither are overrepresented in any way. If anything, Pokemon is way too low on courses. In addition, they are still first party overall and it was hard enough getting a lot of content for Smash in general due to working with Gamefreak, Creatures Inc, and Pokemon company all at once.
They're the biggest Nintendo series to date with a vast amount of characters, more than anything bar Zelda and Fire Emblem at most. Who both have 5 characters and vast amount of courses. Donkey Kong Country is near similar, bar a lot less characters, but there's reasons for that; Dixie was considered during Brawl, but she couldn't work out. Notably, she was going to be a partner character with Diddy, which means that her still not being in may be because Sakurai doesn't see anything else in her. K. Rool also has barely shown up at all for a while now, and there was some more current characters that were higher priority(like Shulk or Wii Fit Trainer). He may be DLC instead as playable.
He never called them overrepresented at all. He's only been worried about Kirby being overrepresented(which also does prove he cares about overrepresentation. There's no use denying that fact. It very much exists). Likewise, you have not give a single good reason to treat Sonic as something other than an actual Guest(which he is entirely. He's not a Nintendo character, after all) character and franchise.
In fact, you've completely ignored everything I said and dismissed it. There is definitely a smart factor in not overrepresenting a guest franchise. It pisses customers off. We know that people will whine if Sonic gets another character but Mega Man, or Street Fighter, or Pac-Man, does not. Or even Metal Gear if Snake comes back. It very much opens a lot of pointless exceptions. Sonic has nothing that makes it worthy of a second character anymore than Pac-Man, Street Fighter, Metal Gear, and/or Mega Man. SF may have less content, but that's again due to time constraints and it being DLC. He did make 3 characters at once and 2 courses at once, as noted. Everybody else is completely on par. DLC so far for any 3rd party franchise has purely been Mii costumes at best(save the SF stuff, but that introduced it into the actual game, so it was just starting out. There was also special reasons for that, as Sakurai actually said he doesn't plan to give courses for DLC characters usually unless they're a new character altogether). Let's not pretend for a moment they aren't all in the exact same boat as each other. They're guests in a Nintendo crossover game. Why should they be treated any different? Really, the only sad thing is Commander Video and Rayman got a bit shafted, but they clearly were just extra content 3rd party-wise, and there may be other reasons for them not being playable(iconicness in Commander Video's case, Ubisoft not cooperating with Nintendo in Rayman's case. We know Ubisoft has not meshed well with Nintendo these days, just like Konami, oddly enough).
Kid Icarus is definitely not overrepresentated. Everything they got besides Pit and Palutena(and the courses) were purely good timing. All of the models could easily be uploaded from Uprising(that's noted by Sakurai himself, that he wanted to make Smash Run as easily as possible, and concentrate on stuff beyond that. A huge problem with Brawl's development was the overconcentration on the SSE), same with a lot of the items. His own team had a lot of experience with them so quickly put them in to buff up the Smash 4 content. Again, convenience. Dark Pit was only added for the same reason as the clones, quick and easy filler that was meant to be fun. Dr. Mario was slightly different as part of his reasoning for being a clone is just because he was separate in Melee, and was a nostalgia trip. It easily made quite a few people happy to see their main back.
edited 20th Aug '15 6:58:19 PM by Irene
Shadow?I might have been confused by your argument because my definition of "over-representation" refers to the total number of characters in SSB; how many characters a franchise has overall has nothing to do with it. However, if we do count how many notable characters a series has, Sonic has a clear advantage over Pac-Man and Metal Gear (though not Street Fighter).
I should also point out that, given how Sakurai still refuses to put in Ridley and gives certain series some preference in the rep department, I don't think he's worried about irate fans, should he give Sonic a second rep.
De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.Ridley's a fairly poor point as he has good reasons for not being in. Sakurai cannot find a way to make him work while making him feel like what is his interpretation of what the character is like. That's pretty much how he works with everyone. It's obviously bias. Metroid also has other issues. A lot of the other hunters and viable characters come off too similar to Samus, something he hasn't shown any interest in for the series. It would'be been particularly easy to throw in a semi-clone of any Hunter or even Dark Samus(with some similarities to Samus, but they'd be about as similar as Wolf is to Fox, which is barely similar at all beyond slight concept). We also saw Samus have a costume similar to Dark Samus, so maybe he didn't find her feasible anyway. Also, Metroid is not that popular in Japan, and Other M did not go well. So getting even more characters other than Ridley may be considered a bad idea than him.
That's really not what overrepresentation is in the Smash series. The characters and all content have to make sense according to how big the series is too, as well as take into account other reasons for it getting certain content. Circumstances give a lot of content at times. All the clones in Melee were solely there due to circumstance. Zelda would've been left with 3. Mario with 4. Pokemon with 3. Fire Emblem with 1. Star Fox with 1(which means Falco might not have been in Brawl and we could've only seen Wolf. Wolf's biggest issue was a lack of a full model as well as looking like a Fox recolor at that time. This is why he was easy to throw in Brawl. A new article came up with a full translation explaining Wolf as well. Did you know he barely made it into Brawl? He only got in because he was super easy to make due to having some moves done for him(modified special moves) and a convenient model. Krystal was considered but didn't get in solely because there was nothing for Sakurai to work with at that time that made her easier than Wolf.)
Fire Emblem is arguably overrepresentated at best, but that's only due to Lucina being an extra at most. It's otherwise pretty well off for having a crapload of highly popular games and being one of Nintendo's biggest franchises. Roy is partially this too, but they also made him more unique than Lucina making the full roster feel rather different from each other.
Another thing to keep in mind is that during Brawl, there were 4 Mario and 6 Pokemon characters total(since you don't play as the Trainer, but 3 of his Pokemon). But most importantly, he planned for Mewtwo and possibly Plusle & Minun, as there's no way to know what Pra_Mai meant. Only Dr. Mario was intended to be in otherwise for Mario characters. Dixie was obviously planned too. As well as Roy. And then there was 2 more planned Zelda characters, Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik(no, there's nothing to suggest he intended Tetra to be in. The fact he already made more than one clone of characters, including Giga Bowser and the various Fighting Teams, as well as Toon Link was a notable character, made it easy to figure he would be fine with making two child-style clones of Zelda and Sheik). Considering Sheik had a TP design, and never appeared in TP proper beyond the concept art, he was fine with using characters who didn't technically exist anyway. This is probably why he didn't go for Tetra(even if she's vastly easier, but she also has no known set of fighting skills, as it's practically all offscreen bar her swinging from a rope at most. Likewise, Sheik had a full moveset at that point. Cloning her and modifying it for a smaller model is clearly easier. Even if making a smaller Sheik model requires more. It's easy to see why neither character overall made it far too. No time, and they of course were lower priority. Neither were particularly important Zelda characters to represent both the child and Toon stuff in the Zelda series. They were just extra ideas).
Shadow?If Lucina was a Marth skin, the cries of FE overrepresentation would be less annoying; two veterans and a newcomer is a really good balance for a series that experienced such a recent surge in popularity (and Roy DLC would be a damn nice extra on top of that).
I also think Sheik should be reduced to an Impa skin (that's it, making the character one of the most important recurring characters rather than a one-time disguise, but still keeping the entire moveset AND the original character), and, if any multi-rep franchise deserves an additional character, it is Zelda.
You can't really win with Smash Bros. fans. Zelda hasn't expanded its representation since Melee and yet there will still be some fans who complain if a one-off character similar to Sheik, such as, say, Groose, is added to the roster.
edited 20th Aug '15 7:36:48 PM by BurntMario
Call me Willy Whistle 'cause I can't speak, baby. Something in TV Tropes really drove me crazy.

It's only a model.
Switch FC code: SW-4420-1809-1805